Supreme Court backs New Haven Firefighters

[starang21]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Their race was the main factor in the city's failure to promoted them. It's hard to see it otherwise.

not necessarily. their group wasn't turned down because they're white. they were turned down because there weren't more or any blacks or latinos. those 20 fire fighters would have been promoted had there been a some black or latino fire fighters. which doesn't hinge upon their whiteness.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by starang21

not necessarily. their group wasn't turned down because they're white. they were turned down because there weren't more blacks or latinos. those 20 fire fighters would have been promoted had there been a some black or latino fire fighters. which doesn't hinge upon their whiteness.

But it does. Because the whiteness of the successful test takers is what prevented them from being black or Hispanic. [ETA: it's true that had others been among them, the issue wouldn't have shaken out like it did, but the fact that they didn't get promoted because they were white and not some other race remains.]

I'm not saying that the intent of the city was racial discrimination, but the effect of the decision had a disparate impact on whites.

I don't know that I go around fretting about reverse discrimination a lot, but most programs that involved the advancement of one group will frequently involved at least active disinterest in the success of other groups. It's hard to do this in a way that doesn't have an effect on one group or another.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Because the whiteness of the successful test takers is what prevented them from being black or Hispanic.

Is the glass half empty or half full? Ohhhhh...the conundrums of life.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I don't know that I go around fretting about reverse discrimination a lot, but most programs that involved the advancement of one group will frequently involved at least active disinterest in the success of other groups. It's hard to do this in a way that doesn't have an effect on one group or another.

White people and especially white males need not fret about reverse discrimination. For every organization that gives a damn about equal opportunity based on race and gender, there are 10 that don't. Long live the status quo. Pip pip hooray!

[starang21]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

But it does. Because the whiteness of the successful test takers is what prevented them from being black or Hispanic.

I'm not saying that the intent of the city was racial discrimination, but the effect of the decision had a disparate impact on whites.

I don't know that I go around fretting about reverse discrimination a lot, but most programs that involved the advancement of one group will frequently involved at least active disinterest in the success of other groups. It's hard to do this in a way that doesn't have an effect on one group or another.

lets say 25 people pass. 20 are white. 5 are nonwhite.

lets say 20 people pass. 20 are white. 0 are nonwhite.

tests are kept for the 1st case. tests are thrown out for the second. the tests are thrown out not because of the first number, but because of the second number. if the tests were thrown out because of they were white, both cases would result in the same outcome.

IMO.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by starang21

lets say 25 people pass. 20 are white. 5 are nonwhite.

lets say 20 people pass. 20 are white. 0 are nonwhite.

tests are kept for the 1st case. tests are thrown out for the second. the tests are thrown out not because of the first number, but because of the second number. if the tests were thrown out because of they were white, both cases would result in the same outcome.

IMO.

wait, when i say first and second, i mean the # of white firefighters = first number, and # of nonwhite firefighters = second number.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by starang21

wait, when i say first and second, i mean the # of white firefighters = first number, and # of nonwhite firefighters = second number.

I understand the point you're trying to make, I think, but the deal is that promotions were supposed to be based on achieving certain scores, not on the racial composition of the people achieving those scores.

It was after the fact that the city basically said, those of you who passed aren't non-white enough so we're canceling the promotions. It's not a theoretically pool, it was a group of specific people who faced this action because they were almost exclusively white.

In theory, as far as my opinion is concerned, if the city wanted to say we're only promoting based on results that yield at least this percentage of non-white qualifiers, maybe that'd be the way to go, since all applicants would have a vested interest in their own success and the success of whatever racial and ethnic groups the city wanted to advance.