Obama's bow to the Saudi King

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

Every word a President says is scrutinized. Making a few verbal gaffes does not/and should not qualify someone as an "idiot."

While I don't fall in the "Bush is an idiot" camp (even though I know quite a few idiots who went to Harvard and Yale and can talk up a room like nobody's business), I have to laugh -- hard -- at "a few verbal gaffes." That's like saying a tornado is a little breeze.

Originally Posted by PhiGam

If it does bite him in the ass then its well deserved. A head bob is not a gesture of subservience like a bow is. The King sure as hell didn't return the bow... goes to show how much respect he has for Obama.

Well, I could say that one does bow to royalty, but one does not typically bow to presidents. Americans don't bow to the president, why should anyone else think that doing so is a sign of respect?

But it's pretty obvious this has nothing to do with your feelings about the bow itself and everything to do with your feelings about Obama himself.

Just be honest about that or get over it already.

[TexasWSP]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

While I don't fall in the "Bush is an idiot" camp (even though I know quite a few idiots who went to Harvard and Yale and can talk up a room like nobody's business), I have to laugh -- hard -- at "a few verbal gaffes." That's like saying a tornado is a little breeze.

Haha, yeah I feel ya.

Look, my family, especially my dad, has had a relationship with the Bush family for 25 years. Pretty much all grew out of the oil business. Dad's best friend's father was, literally, one of H.W.'s closest friends. C. Fred Chambers. He contributed heavily to his campaign, along with bigs from Baker Botts, etc. Fred died a while back....we sat with the Bushes and Chambers family in the church. Taken them fishing, co-hosted parties during various campaigns in Texas, etc. etc. Basically, we know them and they know us. Not like we are buddy-buddy....but you get the picture.

People can think he's an idiot all they want. He made some idiotic decisions. Get him in the right setting and you'll see that he really isn't one.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

Look, my family, especially my dad, has had a relationship with the Bush family for 25 years. Pretty much all grew out of the oil business. Dad's best friend's father was, literally, one of H.W.'s closest friends. C. Fred Chambers. He contributed heavily to his campaign, along with bigs from Baker Botts, etc. Fred died a while back....we sat with the Bushes and Chambers family in the church. Taken them fishing, co-hosted parties during various campaigns in Texas, etc. etc. Basically, we know them and they know us. Not like we are buddy-buddy....but you get the picture.

People can think he's an idiot all they want. He made some idiotic decisions. Get him in the right setting and you'll see that he really isn't one.

I know exactly what you're saying. I think anyone who has had any kind of personal/familial relationship with a prominent public figure, especially a polarizing one, can have a view of that figure that is quite at odds with the view of the random guy on the street. On one hand that may be because the personal/familial relationship can cloud one's objectivity, but at the same time it can give one a much better and more rounded view of the public figure.

[honeychile]

Funny, I was going to add a disclaimer to my post, but deleted it. It went something like this:

It's fairly obvious that I did not vote for Obama. I still think that there are four other people in the United States who are much better qualified to run for President. That said, Obama won, and is our President. I will give him the respect due to him - the respect for the Office of the President of the United States and as a good speaker. I am really trying to go out of my way to say that the Protocol Office may not have properly advised the President about certain situations (such as hugging the Queen).

In other words, I really don't have an axe to grind or an agenda to push - but if he keeps ignoring simple protocol, I will feel free to bash as often as certain posters bashed other Presidents.

There was more, but I haven't slept since Sunday morning, so that will have to do for now.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honeychile

There was more, but I haven't slept since Sunday morning, so that will have to do for now.

Ooo. Hope you're okay.

And for the record, my Jamestown kin (or near kin), it was clear to me that your concern was for proper protocol, pure and simple.

Speaking of protocol, you do know the story about Jackie Kennedy, don't you? When she and President Kennedy met the Queen and Prince Philip, Angier Biddle Duke, Kennedy's chief of protocol, advised Mrs. Kennedy that wives of heads of state do not bow or curtsy to kings and queens. When Mrs. Kennedy received Prince Philip after after Kennedy's funeral, Duke noticed that she curtsied. Knowing that she was stickler for protocol, he expressed his surprise to her. She is said to have responded, "Angie, I'm not the wife of a head of state anymore."

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Well, I could say that one does bow to royalty, but one does not typically bow to presidents. Americans don't bow to the president, why should anyone else think that doing so is a sign of respect?

Why didn't he bow to the Emperor of Japan or the Queen then? They are royalty.

But it's pretty obvious this has nothing to do with your feelings about the bow itself and everything to do with your feelings about Obama himself.

With this logic its not okay for anyone who doesn't like Obama to criticize him. If Bush bowed before the King and then lied about it I would be just as outraged, I assure you. I was upset over the hand holding, and that's nowhere near as bad as this (nor did he lie about it/ deny it.)

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by PhiGam

Why didn't he bow to the Emperor of Japan or the Queen then? They are royalty.

Has Obama met the Emperor of Japan and I missed it? That said, perhaps its because our diplomatic relations with Japan and the UK are much more stable than our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Perhaps its because, unlike Elizabeth II and Akihito, who are heads of state but not of government, Abdullah actually has power, along with influence throughout a large chunk of the world where we need friends with influence. I don't know.

I'll agree it was inappropriate and unfortunate. But I'm with dekeguy and others on this -- in the grand scheme of things it's just not that big a deal to me.

With this logic its not okay for anyone who doesn't like Obama to criticize him.

Not what I said at all, nor would I say it. I simply observed that your comments on the subject, and the tenor of your comments on the subject, suggest that your real beef is with Obama himself. If that's not the case, that's not the case, but that is how it looks to me. 'Course, I'll admit my perception may be faulty because I really can't see much other reason to get too upset over this. Other things, sure; this, not so much.

If Bush bowed before the King and then lied about it I would be just as outraged, I assure you. I was upset over the hand holding, and that's nowhere near as bad as this (nor did he lie about it/ deny it.)

So you were bothered by Bush's bow to Pope John Paul II, then?

And serious request: Can you point me to "the lie from the White House"? All I have been able to find is a response (that Obama was stooping to shake the king's hand) attributed to an anonymous aide. I don't think I'd consider that a White House statement, much less a lie from Obama. Is there an actual statement or response from the White House?

[honeychile]

MysticCat, I've found mostly bloggers' take on the bow, but I do remember hearing about it on NBC. This link at least quotes a White House spokesman, Robert Gibbs.

One excerpt that I feel compelled to cite: "But the traditional Miss Manners book of etiquette advises: 'One does not bow or curtsy to a foreign monarch because the gesture symbolizes recognition of her power over her subjects.'"

I have no idea if this source has an agenda or not.

Loved the Jackie Kennedy story!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honeychile

MysticCat, I've found mostly bloggers' take on the bow, but I do remember hearing about it on NBC. This link at least quotes a White House spokesman, Robert Gibbs.

Thanks. That's more than I had been able to find elsewhere.

And I knew you'd like that story.

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Has Obama met the Emperor of Japan and I missed it? That said, perhaps its because our diplomatic relations with Japan and the UK are much more stable than our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Perhaps its because, unlike Elizabeth II and Akihito, who are heads of state but not of government, Abdullah actually has power, along with influence throughout a large chunk of the world where we need friends with influence. I don't know.

I'll agree it was inappropriate and unfortunate. But I'm with dekeguy and others on this -- in the grand scheme of things it's just not that big a deal to me.

Not what I said at all, nor would I say it. I simply observed that your comments on the subject, and the tenor of your comments on the subject, suggest that your real beef is with Obama himself. If that's not the case, that's not the case, but that is how it looks to me. 'Course, I'll admit my perception may be faulty because I really can't see much other reason to get too upset over this. Other things, sure; this, not so much.

So you were bothered by Bush's bow to Pope John Paul II, then?

And serious request: Can you point me to "the lie from the White House"? All I have been able to find is a response (that Obama was stooping to shake the king's hand) attributed to an anonymous aide. I don't think I'd consider that a White House statement, much less a lie from Obama. Is there an actual statement or response from the White House?

Well, this really does bother me a great deal. I in fact was bothered by Bush's bow to the pope, but that is not the issue in question here.

As for the white house denial: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmi..._to_Saudi.html

And here is a week later when the press sec angrily dismissed a question about it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_185281.html

Both links are from liberal sites. God... I hate Huffington and would advise you to only read the quotes.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by PhiGam

God... I hate Huffington and would advise you to only read the quotes.

That really did have me laughing out loud.

The statement that's in Ben Smith's blog is the one I was talking about that comes from an un-named aide, which I don't consider a White House statement, per se. She-who-should-not-be-named's site had the same quote as the story that honeychile linked, which I had missed -- I missed a lot of news last week. That clearly is an official response (or, um, non-response.)

And I call truce -- I accept that you're truly bothered by it.

[DaemonSeid]

"It wasn't a bow. He grasped his hand with two hands, and he's taller than King Abdullah," said an Obama aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

As quoted from the Politco


Hell, that could have been the janitor saying that.


GIBBS: No, I think he bent over with both, to shake -- with both hands to shake his hand, so I don't--

From The Huff...

wow.

You know what...fuck it...there is really no proof...some of you aren't going to be convinced one way or another...believe whatever the hell you want and move on.

BTW...in some 'real' news...Al Franken won the MN senate seat.