Big school privacy case to go before Supreme Court

[Kevin]

Sen, the "danger" here was that of ibuprofen pills, in other words, there is no rational relationship of the danger posed by the presence of prescription ibuprofen pills to the intrusiveness of the search. If the search, however, was for something else which posed a real threat, e.g., a weapon of some sort, narcotics, or something of that nature, I think the search would have been more justified.

Here, the health and safety of other students was not threatened at all, thus a search, particularly one this intrusive wasn't justified. The lawyers for the school district wrap themselves up in a big 'ol 'illicit drug prevention' banner. Well, this was ibuprofen, not ecstasy.

Zero tolerance policies tend to lead to insane results like this which seem so ridiculously unlikely and lacking in common sense that one is tempted to high tail it over to snopes to see if the story is a hoax. I hope the court finds that the student's rights were violated and pronounces something along these lines -- the degree of the intrusion of the search must bear some rational relationship to the potential danger posed. For something like ibuprofen, the school might reasonably expect to search the student's belongings and have her turn out her pockets. If the accusation tendered is that she has something on the order of illicit drugs, more intrusive measures will be justifiable.

We hire these administrators because we think they have the ability to exercise good judgment. Zero tolerance policies are essentially admissions that these people have poor judgment. I think we're all better off if we live in a society which expects the best from administrators rather than the worst.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Sen, the "danger" here was that of ibuprofen pills, in other words, there is no rational relationship of the danger posed by the presence of prescription ibuprofen pills to the intrusiveness of the search.

Here, the health and safety of other students was not threatened at all, thus a search, particularly one this intrusive wasn't justified. The lawyers for the school district wrap themselves up in a big 'ol 'illicit drug prevention' banner. Well, this was ibuprofen, not ecstasy.

We hire these administrators because we think they have the ability to exercise good judgment. Zero tolerance policies are essentially admissions that these people have poor judgment. I think we're all better off if we live in a society which expects the best from administrators rather than the worst.

Let me start off by saying that I do not believe the student should have been stripped searched. After an accusation by another student, with no other evidence to back it up, the parent should have been called in for an administrator-parent-student discussion to get to the bottom of the story.

Let me just clarify on why schools have to take stands on prescription and non-prescription medicine, such as ibuprofen. Administrators and teachers have no idea if a certain student is allergic to something in the medicine, even over the counter. Many times, even the students themselves aren't sure if they are allergic to something they've never taken.

Picture the situation in a classroom, cafeteria, school hallway.

Tommy: "I've got a headache."

Suzy: "I've got some Tylenol (Anacin, etc.). It helps me. Want one?"

Tommy: "Sure."

Tommy has never taken this type of product before. His parents have never given it to him. Tommy takes the product, has an allergic reaction, and dies. And yes, these situations have occured. Do you know what happens next? The school gets sued by Tommy's parents because the teacher/administration didn't keep another student from giving their child a substance. And yes, these situations have occured. (My mother is allergic to Tylenol. Nobody knew until she took one one evening and ended up in the emergency room).

So, to recap: I do not agree with the strip search. I am trying to get you to understand that ibuprofen and/or other prescription/non-prescription medicine can be a "danger" if the wrong person or dosage takes it. So, schools do have to be wary.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

So, to recap: I do not agree with the strip search. I am trying to get you to understand that ibuprofen and/or other prescription/non-prescription medicine can be a "danger" if the wrong person or dosage takes it. So, schools do have to be wary.

A plastic bag, a rope, a pencil or 1 1/2 inches of water can also kill you, but they probably won't -- just like ibuprofen.

I can see other prescription drugs warranting this treatment. Not ibuprofen though. In your hypo, I doubt a teenager with a severe ibuprofen allergy is going to accept an anti-inflammatory or any kind of pain med from someone without knowing what it is as there's almost no way they'd not be aware of their allergy.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by Kevin

A plastic bag, a rope, a pencil or 1 1/2 inches of water can also kill you, but they probably won't -- just like ibuprofen.

I can see other prescription drugs warranting this treatment. Not ibuprofen though. In your hypo, I doubt a teenager with a severe ibuprofen allergy is going to accept an anti-inflammatory or any kind of pain med from someone without knowing what it is as there's almost no way they'd not be aware of their allergy.

That's why I don't allow plastic bags, ropes, or water in my classroom. The pencils are only allowed with a written permission slip signed by both parents, a pediatrician, and the head of the local police precinct.

Read my statement again: Emergency rooms are full of people who didn't know they were allergic to items. You can even develop an allergy to something that you've previously been around. My scenerio was a kid who has never been exposed to something and they/their parents don't even know that they are allergic to it (or have developed an allergy to it). I didn't say that the kid knew they were allergic and went ahead and took it. I'm trying to explain why the school districts have to be careful and even go overboard. (Not to the extent of a strip search, though.)

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

Read my statement again: Emergency rooms are full of people who didn't know they were allergic to items. You can even develop an allergy to something that you've previously been around. My scenerio was a kid who has never been exposed to something and they/their parents don't even know that they are allergic to it (or have developed an allergy to it). I didn't say that the kid knew they were allergic and went ahead and took it. I'm trying to explain why the school districts have to be careful and even go overboard. (Not to the extent of a strip search, though.)

This is totally understandable, but the school's right to protect itself from potential liability has limits too, which is what Kevin is getting at.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

That's why I don't allow plastic bags, ropes, or water in my classroom. The pencils are only allowed with a written permission slip signed by both parents, a pediatrician, and the head of the local police precinct.

Read my statement again: Emergency rooms are full of people who didn't know they were allergic to items. You can even develop an allergy to something that you've previously been around. My scenerio was a kid who has never been exposed to something and they/their parents don't even know that they are allergic to it (or have developed an allergy to it). I didn't say that the kid knew they were allergic and went ahead and took it. I'm trying to explain why the school districts have to be careful and even go overboard. (Not to the extent of a strip search, though.)

This is true for foods and cleaning supplies and the liquid soap in the bathroom at the school, etc. You can't not have ANYTHING because someone in the world might be allergic to it.

The ibuprofen is a real sticking point with me because so many girls have to have it or have to miss school a couple days a month. It's kind of ridiculous to have to miss school because you're not allowed to take Ibuprofen.

In any case, I don't think any child should be strip searched without their parent present. That's total BS and I would be livid if my daughter were strip searched by school personnel. Police cannot strip search without having arrested a person and they can't arrest someone without showing probably cause so why in the world can a school do this based on one peer's verbal report??? So all they have to do is go around telling teachers "I saw so and so with Ibuprofen" and they're going to strip search all those kids? Let's be real.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

This is totally understandable, but the school's right to protect itself from potential liability has limits too, which is what Kevin is getting at.

Originally Posted by AGDee

The ibuprofen is a real sticking point with me because so many girls have to have it or have to miss school a couple days a month. It's kind of ridiculous to have to miss school because you're not allowed to take Ibuprofen.

You do what every school system I know does. The school nurse or someone else in the office has the ibuprofen, and you have a note from your doctor authorizing the school nurse (or whoever) to give it to your child as directed by the doctor.

Originally Posted by Kevin

A plastic bag, a rope, a pencil or 1 1/2 inches of water can also kill you, but they probably won't -- just like ibuprofen.

I can see other prescription drugs warranting this treatment. Not ibuprofen though. In your hypo, I doubt a teenager with a severe ibuprofen allergy is going to accept an anti-inflammatory or any kind of pain med from someone without knowing what it is as there's almost no way they'd not be aware of their allergy.

I'm with Lane on this one. I've seen my fair share of legal threats and actions against schools to completely understand why the school might draw the line where they did.

And the bolded part would be funny if it weren't sadly untrue.

As far as what the school actually did -- I would just caution anyone to be leery of accepting a news story's account at face value. There's almost always more to the story.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

You do what every school system I know does. The school nurse or someone else in the office has the ibuprofen, and you have a note from your doctor authorizing the school nurse (or whoever) to give it to your child as directed by the doctor.

We can't do that with over the counter meds because the child's name is not on the bottle. We can only do that with prescriptions and, quite honestly, she doesn't need prescription strength ibuprofen, only over the counter.

ETA: You also have to drop off the medication daily and pick it up at the end of the day (the parent does) because they do not want to be responsible for storing meds in the school. It's kind of messed up. My daughter IS allowed to carry her Epi-Pen and her asthma inhaler on her person at all times though.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

As far as what the school actually did -- I would just caution anyone to be leery of accepting a news story's account at face value. There's almost always more to the story.

I read through parts of the briefs, and you're right, the story's a bit more complicated. Apparently there was a previous incident where a student was passing out prescription drugs at the school, and a student had to be airlifted to the hospital after a really bad reaction. That, combined with the alcohol issues, apparently made the school officials very wary of alcohol and drug problems.

That may be enough to justify the search at its inception, as I understand the potential problems if students are passing out prescription drugs. They went too far with the strip search, though; there were a lot of other less intrusive ways to go about this.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by AGDee

It's kind of ridiculous to have to miss school because you're not allowed to take Ibuprofen.

I'm assuming that this school's policy is similar to my kids' school's policy in that any prescription must be maintained by a school official. The student who needs their prescription is certainly allowed to take it - s/he just can't keep it on her/his own person (or locker, backpack, etc...). I don't think anyone said the student couldn't take the ibuprofen, just that it couldn't be in her possession.

Originally Posted by AGDee

In any case, I don't think any child should be strip searched without their parent present. That's total BS and I would be livid if my daughter were strip searched by school personnel.

I agree 100% with this. IMO, searching in the absence of the student's parent(s) is where the school crossed the line.

ETA: It took me too long to type that and there's already been a discussion about it!

[MysticCat]

Update:

I haven't had a chance to read the opinions yet, but apparently the Court, by a 8-1 vote (Thomas dissenting ) held that the search was unconstitutional, but by a 7-2 vote (Stevens and Ginsburg dissenting) held that the status of the law at the time of the search was sufficiently unclear that the school officials are entitled to qualified immunity from suit. (The question remains open as to the liability, if any, of the district itself.) Souter wrote the majority opinion.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by AGDee

The ibuprofen is a real sticking point with me because so many girls have to have it or have to miss school a couple days a month. It's kind of ridiculous to have to miss school because you're not allowed to take Ibuprofen.

ITA. When I was a teenager, I got such severe cramps that I couldn't get out of bed unless I took large doses of ibuprofen. My HS had a zero-tolerance drug policy, so I had to make a choice: sneak ibuprofen and risk suspension, or pass out from cramps, go to the nurse's office, and get sent home. So I carried ibuprofen and Tic-Tacs. If an adult heard the rattling of pills coming from my purse, I would just hold up the Tic-Tac box and say, "Oh, I was just getting a mint, Mrs. Nosy."

I cannot see how it's "better" for the school, that a girl suffering menstrual cramps should be made to suffer, or sent home, rather than be allowed an OTC pain reliever.