TRANSGENDER: NPHC and NALFO question

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

^^^ But who's to say an 18-year old, second semester freshman who pledges an NPHC org knows at that age that they're going to go through with a gender transition?

Of course I know that I'm swerving, but you've always been good to me when I asked sincere questions in the past:

Don't you think that the national identities (I mean something like "images," but more substantial and true of the ideals of the groups) of the individual NPHC groups would, in almost all cases, keep a transgendered person from fully identifying with a group for his or her birth gender? (I apologize for not being sure of the term. I mean first biological gender, before any transitioning.)

For example, I have a hard time thinking that someone who felt biologically a man would be interested in joining a women's group in 99% of the cases. I know we've got the case in the news recently, but I think it's pretty exceptional.

And in an unrelated question, what percentage of NPHC members do you think would consider a transgendered person worthy of membership? (I'll go ahead and say that I think the vast majority of NPC members and IFC members would be uncomfortable with a transgendered member, although not a vast majority of NPC/IFC GreekChat users willing to speak up in a thread about the issue will feel this way.)

I don't think that these members find the transgendered less than human or anything super horrible, but because my perception from the outside is that a member might take seriously the idea of being an Alpha Phi Alpha man or a Delta Sigma Theta woman so that someone with any gender related issue might, in their minds, fail to live up to the ideals of the group based on that complication alone. It may be an elite thing as much as a gender thing.

ETA: I see that the conversation has kind of passed me by while I was composing. People expressed what I was thinking while I was trying to figure out how to say it.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

A decade ago, I would have agreed. Today? Not so much.

Why is that? I am not challenging you, just curious as to why you feel that way.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by TSteven

Why is that? I am not challenging you, just curious as to why you feel that way.

Youth that feel this way nowadays have people to relate to on TV (Isis on ANTM, Katelynn from RW-Brooklyn, etc). Plus, the internet gives them the opportunity to educate themselves and find others with similar thoughts/feelings.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Of course I know that I'm swerving, but you've always been good to me when I asked sincere questions in the past:

Don't you think that the national identities (I mean something like "images," but more substantial and true of the ideals of the groups) of the individual NPHC groups would, in almost all cases, keep a transgendered person from fully identifying with a group for his or her birth gender? (I apologize for not being sure of the term. I mean first biological gender, before any transitioning.)

For example, I have a hard time thinking that someone who felt biologically a man would be interested in joining a women's group in 99% of the cases. I know we've got the case in the news recently, but I think it's pretty exceptional.

And in an unrelated question, what percentage of NPHC members do you think would consider a transgendered person worthy of membership? (I'll go ahead and say that I think the vast majority of NPC members and IFC members would be uncomfortable with a transgendered member, although not a vast majority of NPC/IFC GreekChat users willing to speak up in a thread about the issue will feel this way.)

I don't think that these members find the transgendered less than human or anything super horrible, but because my perception from the outside is that a member might take seriously the idea of being an Alpha Phi Alpha man or a Delta Sigma Theta woman so that someone with any gender related issue might, in their minds, fail to live up to the ideals of the group based on that complication alone. It may be an elite thing as much as a gender thing.

ETA: I see that the conversation has kind of passed me by while I was composing. People expressed what I was thinking while I was trying to figure out how to say it.

I once wrote a paper that connected Yoruba deities to something I called the "archetypical" NPHC member, which was defined as something in between a stereotype and an ideal. So I'll just use that term for now.

I think that some NPHC archetypes are probably more entrenched than others. Yes, I do believe there is an archetype for each NPHC org, but I think for some people, the values themselves possibly transcend the gender identity. Possibly. Depends on the person.

I am not transgendered. I can only go by the spectrum of transgender people who I do know and work with. I think it's entirely possible that someone could be fighting their gender identity hard enough where they'd pursue an org of their birth/biological gender in their late teens and early twenties. I liken it to gay men who get married to a woman not fully grasping their sexual identity before they commit to marriage.

The case in the news.... well, let me just say she doesn't even look like a boy to me, so I could understand the chapter's reluctance to accept that s/he was more than just a masculine Lesbian. What I don't understand is this particular person's insistence on being a "man" but pledging a sorority with "Finer Womanhood" as a guiding principle -- especially when there are not one, but two coed service-based GLOs on that campus. But that's for another thread.

Over the past few years, I've been more exposed to the T in LGBT, and I can say without hesitation that if a female-to-male transgender aspirant excelled in all other qualifications, I would vote favorably upon him, regardless of prior sorority affiliation. The likelihood of them actually being in a sorority previously would probably be slim. Do I think my fraternity at large shares my beliefs? No. But I do believe there are a few chapters of every organization who would do the same.

[UGAalum94]

Senusret I, I didn't think you were transgendered, for the record. I don't know if you said that as a point of emphasis or if you thought I equated being G with being T.

My own personal jury is still out on transgenderedness generally. I haven't known enough transgendered people personally to really understand it at the level where I'll accept it as a matter of identity where the problem is with the sex organs/characteristics nature assigned rather than a psychological issue.

But fortunately for the transgendered, no one is waiting for my opinion, and since I generally want people to be treated well and with kindness in real life, I don't think my thoughts are likely to cause any transgendered person to have a negative experience.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

Over the past few years, I've been more exposed to the T in LGBT....

Ditto. This includes my acquaintances who I shared a horrendously long Greyhound bus ride with years ago and have stayed in with touch eversince.

Both of these individuals are obviously born male, despite the hormones they are taking, and display exaggerated feminine traits (such exaggeration is often characteristic of transgenderism). One of these he-to-she individuals is getting married and has expressed interest in going back to college.

I kept thinking about what would happen if she wanted to join an NPHC sorority. This article made me think about it even more. I wonder if her transgenderism was less obvious (it may be less obvious with more hormones and gender assimilation), would I feel differently given that she had all of the other qualifications including excelling in academics and service. I don't know. I think she'd have a difficult time PERIOD.