Obama's Rhetoric is the Real Catastrophe

[DrPhil]

Back to one of the topics....

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I'm very concerned about this stimulus package and the affect it will have on us in the future because 1) it's only going to extend the inevitable and 2) it does our debt problem no good.

What are our realistic options?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What are our realistic options?

Let the economy bottom out as soon as possible so we can pick up the pieces. Focus current funding on social services to get people through these difficult times. I understand that people don't want to lose what they have, but that's pretty inevitable at this point. The longer we keep extending the recession by using tax payer money, the worse the real bottom is going to be.

What are we really afraid of? Losing the so-called American Dream?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Let the economy bottom out as soon as possible so we can pick up the pieces. Focus current funding on social services to get people through these difficult times. I understand that people don't want to lose what they have, but that's pretty inevitable at this point. The longer we keep extending the recession by using tax payer money, the worse the real bottom is going to be.

What are we really afraid of? Losing the so-called American Dream?

It's really hard to shrink social services again once an "entitlement" has been created. (An entitlement is one of those things that always seems to be in the eye of the beholder.)

But my take on real estate sometimes approaches what you've said here. Yeah, it will suck to owe more on my moderate mortgage than my house my be worth when the market can't absorb the foreclosures without dropping prices. And yet, the idea of subsidizing mortgages for the people who got loans they couldn't afford so they can avoid foreclosure kind of make me fell like a sucker. Why are the folks who bought homes they could afford paying either way?

I suppose I should just be glad that my husband and I are employed and can pay.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Let the economy bottom out as soon as possible so we can pick up the pieces. Focus current funding on social services to get people through these difficult times. I understand that people don't want to lose what they have, but that's pretty inevitable at this point. The longer we keep extending the recession by using tax payer money, the worse the real bottom is going to be.

What are we really afraid of? Losing the so-called American Dream?

That sounds like letting capitalism crumble so that we can give rise to socialism (or the, much better approach, combination of capitalism and socialism). In other words, what will happen after the crumble?

What the American Dream is varies based on status groups. But people are afraid of the uncertainty and whether the structure can keep us from an "every man and woman for him and herself" mentality. Where are the social safety nets? Many states are struggling with 10% unemployment, what would they do with 50% unemployment?

That's the long and short of it. There's much more to it.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That sounds like letting capitalism crumble so that we can give rise to socialism (or the, much better approach, combination of capitalism and socialism). In other words, what will happen after the crumble?

While I'm not really in favor of capitalism from an ethical standpoint, that's what we have in this country. If we want to be capitalists, we should let capitalism do its job which means weak businesses go under while strong businesses merge to create mega powers.

After the crumble, we'll have an upswing as we always do. What we're doing now mirrors what we did in reaction to the Great Depression. We pumped tax payer money into the economy and extended the depression all the way into WWII. That's not to say that the war ended the depression. I'm just highlighting that the Great Depression lasted at least the twelve years from 1929-1941.

We're not even in a full-on depression yet and we've already got two enormous stimulus packages plus the latest mortgage bailout nonsense that Obama is working on now. I understand where he's coming from and why he's doing it, but I don't think it's the right move.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

While I'm not really in favor of capitalism from an ethical standpoint, that's what we have in this country. If we want to be capitalists, we should let capitalism do its job which means weak businesses go under while strong businesses merge to create mega powers.

After the crumble, we'll have an upswing as we always do. What we're doing now mirrors what we did in reaction to the Great Depression. We pumped tax payer money into the economy and extended the depression all the way into WWII. That's not to say that the war ended the depression. I'm just highlighting that the Great Depression lasted at least the twelve years from 1929-1941.

We're not even in a full-on depression yet and we've already got two enormous stimulus packages plus the latest mortgage bailout nonsense that Obama is working on now. I understand where he's coming from and why he's doing it, but I don't think it's the right move.

I'm by no means an economist or economic scholar, but it seems like you're equating the US system with more of a pure capitalism, a laissez-faire system. I don't know that that's completely accurate.

The "Great Depression" is a tough comp, because I don't think anyone really knows how much FDR's social programs helped. I think a lot more credit has to be given to WWII and the business that came out of that. But, that's getting into my "FDR is Overrated" kick...

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I'm by no means an economist or economic scholar, but it seems like you're equating the US system with more of a pure capitalism, a laissez-faire system. I don't know that that's completely accurate.

It isn't accurate. This is not a pure capitalist system.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

It isn't accurate. This is not a pure capitalist system.

OMG, does Rush Limbaugh know??

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

The "Great Depression" is a tough comp, because I don't think anyone really knows how much FDR's social programs helped. I think a lot more credit has to be given to WWII and the business that came out of that. But, that's getting into my "FDR is Overrated" kick...

I don't think the social programs worked to right the economy; however, they did drastically improve our quality of life.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

The "Great Depression" is a tough comp, because I don't think anyone really knows how much FDR's social programs helped. I think a lot more credit has to be given to WWII and the business that came out of that. But, that's getting into my "FDR is Overrated" kick...

WWII played a huge role in our ultimate recovery from the Great Depression. You know the phrase, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it"? Yeah, some folks have already started to express caution. If times get really desperate, and people feel vulnerable and scared, it would be very tempting for the gov't to create jobs in, say, the defense industry. Bombers and tankers, anyone?

[Munchkin03]

I can't believe anyone is surprised by the New York Post thing. The newspaper isn't even good enough to be toilet paper, let alone mullet wrap.

Even though it's NYC's "conservative" paper, it's scum. When my best friend from college died, they harassed me, her other friends, and worse!, her family. They wrote things about her last days that were patently untrue. The other papers in NYC got the story right, but they were ridiculous. When they chased us as we were walking out of her memorial, that was the last straw. I haven't read that pile of nonsense in over 4 years.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

WWII played a huge role in our ultimate recovery from the Great Depression. You know the phrase, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it"? Yeah, some folks have already started to express caution. If times get really desperate, and people feel vulnerable and scared, it would be very tempting for the gov't to create jobs in, say, the defense industry. Bombers and tankers, anyone?

This seems a little . . . alarmist, since the jobs that spurred the economy in the 1940s (primarily factory-based, or related to blue-collar or no-collar jobs) wouldn't really exist for modern warfare and automated production lines.

Unless Joe Sixpack can weld together an unmanned attack drone, I just don't see this as viable anymore, certainly not viable enough to consider it for any sort of semi-'conspiracy' theory.

Still, I feel where you're coming from - the lack of consensus on how to handle the situation could seriously lead to some awkward "policy-pushing" under the guise of solution. Indeed, that's what Republicans consider a large portion of the current stimulus.