The Medical Thread

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

lol why are you depressed, what have you been doing to them? I don't think it can be any worse than what I've done to some of them.

It's the sheer number of them... I hit my limit. After a passive method, and so many of them, I am needing something stronger than 2 hard alcoholic beverages... Something like Vici or a percoset...

As you move up in your field, and review possibly "Lab Animal Medicine", you will find that the duty of the vet is to ensure optimal care of all "research animals". What you find is most folks are clueless as to how to plan for experiments with animal models. They basically breed several cages together, thereby generating 100's of animals that go unused. And because animal costs are high, we wind up euthanizing them...

My personally thoughts are every animal generated needs to be used in research protocols--or most of them. And because we take US Taxpayer funds to finance this research, then it behooves us to make the most of these animal models completely... Well, that is not happening at my institution. Dare I say most of them.

So 100's or 1000's of unusable animal models are resigned to a dubious fate...

Just thinking about it will cause me nightmares... This is outside my character... And if I stay on it, I will get pissed.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

It's the sheer number of them... I hit my limit. After a passive method, and so many of them, I am needing something stronger than 2 hard alcoholic beverages... Something like Vici or a percoset...

As you move up in your field, and review possibly "Lab Animal Medicine", you will find that the duty of the vet is to ensure optimal care of all "research animals". What you find is most folks are clueless as to how to plan for experiments with animal models. They basically breed several cages together, thereby generating 100's of animals that go unused. And because animal costs are high, we wind up euthanizing them...

My personally thoughts are every animal generated needs to be used in research protocols--or most of them. And because we take US Taxpayer funds to finance this research, then it behooves us to make the most of these animal models completely... Well, that is not happening at my institution. Dare I say most of them.

So 100's or 1000's of unusable animal models are resigned to a dubious fate...

Just thinking about it will cause me nightmares... This is outside my character... And if I stay on it, I will get pissed.

AKA_Monet this is very interesting. I don't know why this hasn't been discussed before on this thread. I agree with you though. Me personally, I think there needs to be something in place to develop non animal alternatives to the use of animals in research and education. I mean just to kill animals because they're not being used for experiments is not right at all. I think fewer animals can be used to obtain the same amount data or allow more information to be obtained from a given number of animals. I think this would decrease the total number of animals that have to be used. I also think that refinement alternatives would be nice too, because it would lessen animals pain and distress. I mean, think about it. If more refinement alternatives are developed, I think it's appropriate to assume that if a procedure is painful to humans, it will also be painful to animals. Anesthetics and/or analgesics could be used to alleviate any potential pain. That's sad to just euthanize them just because they're not going to be used. I see why it makes you upset. I think this is great topic though.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

AKA_Monet this is very interesting. I don't know why this hasn't been discussed before on this thread. I agree with you though. Me personally, I think there needs to be something in place to develop non animal alternatives to the use of animals in research and education. I mean just to kill animals because they're not being used for experiments is not right at all. I think fewer animals can be used to obtain the same amount data or allow more information to be obtained from a given number of animals. I think this would decrease the total number of animals that have to be used. I also think that refinement alternatives would be nice too, because it would lessen animals pain and distress. I mean, think about it. If more refinement alternatives are developed, I think it's appropriate to assume that if a procedure is painful to humans, it will also be painful to animals. Anesthetics and/or analgesics could be used to alleviate any potential pain. That's sad to just euthanize them just because they're not going to be used. I see why it makes you upset. I think this is great topic though.

What you just stated are the OLAW rules... But folks in research, with exceptions, are clueless and to be honest just don't care...

Lately, there are stop-gaps in place: I.e. having approval to do animal experiments shown to the publication journals or the journals retract the paper... Losing laboratory space and privilege to use animals for studies if there are violations.

My lab before this one had GROSS violations. My current lab, does not have too many violations, but the personnel's apathy about "minimizing the use and care of animals" is absent... When there are no ENFORCEABLE PUNITIVE regulations in place, then that permits a lapse in appropriate care and use of laboratory animals...

But my husband told me some of his stories and he had to do large animals, which I would have a tough time doing... And I know some vets that have to do primates, now that's tough overall.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

What you just stated are the OLAW rules... But folks in research, with exceptions, are clueless and to be honest just don't care...

Lately, there are stop-gaps in place: I.e. having approval to do animal experiments shown to the publication journals or the journals retract the paper... Losing laboratory space and privilege to use animals for studies if there are violations.

My lab before this one had GROSS violations. My current lab, does not have too many violations, but the personnel's apathy about "minimizing the use and care of animals" is absent... When there are no ENFORCEABLE PUNITIVE regulations in place, then that permits a lapse in appropriate care and use of laboratory animals...

But my husband told me some of his stories and he had to do large animals, which I would have a tough time doing... And I know some vets that have to do primates, now that's tough overall.

Kind of reminds me of OSHA rules. Companies are supposed to follow the rules or risk fines. Are all the rules followed? No. Probably just enough to keep from getting shut down. The same thing applies to OLAW. It's like you said, it just depends on how closely they're following those rules. I think it's more of just not caring. You should see how inhumane cattle are treated at some of the slaughter houses. Maybe I should be a vegetarian. Just a thought.

Though I do think opinions vary on this subject, but technically we really don't have to dissect dead animals or vivisect living ones. I know there are other alternatives, especially with the technology available today. AKA_Monet, I really don't have a problem dissecting dead animals, it's the living ones I'm not a big fan of. Even though there are other alternatives, I don't think dissecting is really necessary because there are other non animal alternatives in which students can learn about physiology and anatomy. Of course, I don't think it's the only way, but a better way. I think it's just as good as or better than either dissection or vivisection. I'm not totally against either way, I just prefer non animal alternatives. I know that many undergraduate and graduate programs, require students to cut apart or dissect specimens that have been prepared for this purpose, or to do experiments on live animals. A lot of times students don't object to it, because they're not aware of other alternatives that are available to them.

Primates? Yeah, that would be difficult for me too. I mean, look at the proteins on the surface of human and chimpanzee cells. I think it's like, out of 9 amino acid chains, there are only something like 5 differences out of a total of over 1,200 amino acid positions. I'm not exactly sure of the exact number, but I think it's somewhere around there though.

Speaking of OLAW, how do you feel about HAPS?

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Speaking of OLAW, how do you feel about HAPS?

Funny you should mention that since it is my institution that grants the postgraduate institute courses... LOL.

As a researcher, they "generally" do not make us Molecular Geneticists take those kinds of courses unless they want us, to do so... That's the thing, I am learning this AFTER grad school which totally sucks because I feel so behind... And I could have learned surgery long time ago.

[Silmanarmo]

<<----- First Year Nursing student 'Trent U'

I'll answer as many questions as I can lol

[Zephyrus]

I sat out of school for a while, but I'm going back in Jan. I was there for a year, got married, divorced, and now I'm going back in Jan. I was majoring in biology my 1st year. I'll still be going back for biology and I was thinking about going into dentistry as a profession, but right now I'm undecided. For the most part though, this is a very interesting thread. I'll be asking a lot of questions.

[Zephyrus]

Originally Posted by Silmanarmo

<<----- First Year Nursing student 'Trent U'

I'll answer as many questions as I can lol

A co-worker of mine was going to school for nursing. She said it was a two year program. Does it depend on what kind of nurse you want to be, or does it matter?

[Silmanarmo]

Originally Posted by Zephyrus

A co-worker of mine was going to school for nursing. She said it was a two year program. Does it depend on what kind of nurse you want to be, or does it matter?

To be a practical nurse you take a 2 year college course but to be a registered nurse you take a 4 year university course. Then you can go ont to get your masters etc

[KillarneyRose]

Actually, you can get RN certification after two years of studying at, say, a community college. If you get a bachelors degree in nursing, you get a BSN but you still need to pass a test to get an RN.

Sort of like if someone graduates with an engineering degree, they still have to take their professional engineering exam to get a license.

[KillarneyRose]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

You're also working 80 hours a week.

From what my sister told me when she was doing her residency, you actually PUNCH OUT after 80 hours then continue working for another 30 hours or so.

I don't know how you folks do it, but I'm glad you do!

PS Big Red Beta, did you go to Cornell? My sister was a KKG there.

[amanda6035]

^^Shut up about your damn toner. Wahhhh

[Zephyrus]

Originally Posted by KillarneyRose

Actually, you can get RN certification after two years of studying at, say, a community college. If you get a bachelors degree in nursing, you get a BSN but you still need to pass a test to get an RN.

Sort of like if someone graduates with an engineering degree, they still have to take their professional engineering exam to get a license.

I don't think it was a community college she went to. When I see her, I'll have to ask. I'm positive she said it was two years though.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

And I could have learned surgery long time ago.

Who said it was too late?

Originally Posted by Silmanarmo

<<----- First Year Nursing student 'Trent U'

I'll answer as many questions as I can lol

What kind of Nurse are you studying to be?

Originally Posted by copyboi

Hey CheerfulGeek! I work at Kinkos

Oh my...wooooow!! awesome!!

[amanda6035]

Originally Posted by copyboi

Why the hell do I need to shut up? It is a legitimate issue!! If it was your issue you would not say that! You are making me very angry, very angry indeed! Are you saying that I am just fuct?!?!?

No, I'm saying you're a troll. Go away.