Colin Powell Endorses Obama on 'Meet the Press'

[Elephant Walk]

I've never thought Colin Powell to be Republican.

At least he's pro-fascist now.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I've never thought Colin Powell to be Republican.

At least he's pro-fascist now.

How exactly does endorsing the liberal candidate make Colin Powell "pro-fascist," especially since fascism opposes liberalism and supports strong nationalism and preparedness for war at all times?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

How exactly does endorsing the liberal candidate make Colin Powell "pro-fascist," especially since fascism opposes liberalism and supports strong nationalism and preparedness for war at all times?

It also encourages control of it's population through any means possible.

Obamas progressive taxation and willingness to assume more control over the wealth of a nation and with that, the freedom of a nation is fascism. Money is the means to live, the means to eat. If he assumes himself the dictator of what it is to live, that is fascism. Furthermore, his want to control medicine and health of the nation through Universal Health care which makes him even further in control of the American populace. I suppose you could claim him a Communist, but perfect Commies are for the eventual tearing down of the state.

Absolutely disgusting (although McCain is not much better, I always see economic control as a far worse thing than moral control)

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

It also encourages control of its population through any means possible.

This is true, but only to a point. Fascism--at least in its ideal form--endorses control of a population by very specific means (usually by extreme nationalism and militarism, and not by "any means possible." Fascism is also opposed to Communism and Socialism, by the way.

It seems to me that people tend to use the term not as a way to connect a politician's views to those of Hitler or Mussolini (textbook fascists), but as a slur against a political opponent.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

It seems to me that people tend to use the term not as a way to connect a politician's views to those of Hitler or Mussolini (textbook fascists), but as a slur against a political opponent.

Not to go on too much of a threadjack, but this has been an argument of political scholars for quite a long time. George Orwell wrote an article on the subject in the 1940s: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

This is true, but only to a point. Fascism--at least in its ideal form--endorses control of a population by very specific means (usually by extreme nationalism and militarism, and not by "any means possible." Fascism is also opposed to Communism and Socialism, by the way.

It seems to me that people tend to use the term not as a way to connect a politician's views to those of Hitler or Mussolini (textbook fascists), but as a slur against a political opponent.

I agree with you on this, and I don't think that the Bush=Hitler rhetoric by some helped any.

I got irritated about the Bush as a fascist rhetoric a few years ago*, and spent time thinking about it: even the methods and ideologies of Hitler and Mussolini aren't really as close in terms of economic systems as maybe one would think. And they sure as heck don't apply to either of the mainstream two party candidates in this election.

*not that Bush was great, but we were a far cry from fascist by any stretch of the imagination, and yet I knew people who really felt there were strong parallels. There are actually probably stronger parallels with fascism now after the bailout, depending on how one interprets "corporativismo."

[BabyPiNK_FL]

I watched this this morning. I loved his responses. But he's a fellow JA-er so I love him regardless.

I also saw on our local station (WPLG) where TV head editor/anchor Michael Putney had a chance to interview McCain while he was down here for the rally at FIU. McCain was so out there. Mr. Putney would begin asking a question and McCain would interrupt, knowing that the question would be one that wasn't necessarily putting him in the best light (example: Putney began to ask about poll numbers being in Obama's favor and McCain would cut him off and start talking about polls that were in his favor). It's fine if he wants to steer his answer towards something that makes him look good. I don't blame him. But, let the interviewer at least finish the question! He made himself look not only rude, but as if he can't take the "heat".

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Fascism is also opposed to Communism and Socialism, by the way.

Nazi stands for "National Socialist Party" FYI, and economically it was a very Socialist movement.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia "Nazi" article

"In place of ordinary profit incentive to guide the economy, investment was guided through regulation to accord to the needs of the State. The profit incentive for business owners was retained, though greatly modified through various profit-fixing schemes: “Fixing of profits, not their suppression, was the official policy of the Nazi party.” However the function of profit in automatically guiding allocation of investment and unconsciously directing the course of the economy was replaced with economic planning by Nazi government agencies. Government financing eventually came to dominate the investment process, which the proportion of private securities issued falling from over half of the total in 1933 and 1934 to approximately 10 percent in 1935–1938. Heavy taxes on business profits limited self-financing of firms. The largest firms were mostly exempt from taxes on profits, however government control of these were extensive enough to leave “only the shell of private ownership.”"

...

Taxes and subsidies were also used in order to direct the economy.

Windfall profits tax, anyone?

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel

Nazi stands for "National Socialist Party" FYI, and economically it was a very Socialist movement.

The architects of the party did not want to use the term "Socialist," because of the connections to left-leaning groups; instead, they used the term "socialist" to reflect their belief that the role of social welfare should be moved from the church to the state. There's a lot more to their use of the term "socialist," FYI.

The long and short of what I'm saying, and no one has yet to challenge this, is that most laypeople people use the term "fascist" as a way of hurling insults at someone whose political beliefs do not align with their own. In other words, it's a highly dramatic, downright hysterical, and utterly fallacious way of conducting political discourse.

Anyway, I haven't heard anyone else refer to Obama as "pro-fascist," so I'm going to call this as hysteria.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

The architects of the party did not want to use the term "Socialist," because of the connections to left-leaning groups; instead, they used the term "socialist" to reflect their belief that the role of social welfare should be moved from the church to the state. There's a lot more to their use of the term "socialist," FYI.

The long and short of what I'm saying, and no one has yet to challenge this, is that most laypeople people use the term "fascist" as a way of hurling insults at someone whose political beliefs do not align with their own. In other words, it's a highly dramatic, downright hysterical, and utterly fallacious way of conducting political discourse.

Anyway, I haven't heard anyone else refer to Obama as "pro-fascist," so I'm going to call this as hysteria.

There's a great Orwell quote about this.

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

The architects of the party did not want to use the term "Socialist," because of the connections to left-leaning groups; instead, they used the term "socialist" to reflect their belief that the role of social welfare should be moved from the church to the state. There's a lot more to their use of the term "socialist," FYI.

The long and short of what I'm saying, and no one has yet to challenge this, is that most laypeople people use the term "fascist" as a way of hurling insults at someone whose political beliefs do not align with their own. In other words, it's a highly dramatic, downright hysterical, and utterly fallacious way of conducting political discourse.

Anyway, I haven't heard anyone else refer to Obama as "pro-fascist," so I'm going to call this as hysteria.

Regardless of why they liked the word, they were in practice socialist, either nationalizing industries outright or using taxes, subsidies, and brute force coercion to force industries and people to act in concert with the way the national planning boards envisioned. There was also a huge attack on the profit motive, a concerted effort to bring low-income workers on board (it was originally the National Socialist Workers Party), and an attack on a lot of the moneyed interests in Germany. They were in every sense of the word a socialist party, just people like to pretend that extremist nationalism and socialism can't coexist. They very clearly have in a number of examples (like those cited by EW previously).


And equating people to fascists/nazis is idiotic and most people realize that. I think that's why no one is responding to you on that point, but to argue that "fascist" can never be compared to leftist parties due to their incongruent social policies is a dumb argument. If that's the case they can never be compared to right wing parties either due to their incongruent economic policies. But maybe that's the point, it was an odd mixing of political views which doesn't resemble any significant parties in existence today.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

The architects of the party did not want to use the term "Socialist," because of the connections to left-leaning groups; instead, they used the term "socialist" to reflect their belief that the role of social welfare should be moved from the church to the state. There's a lot more to their use of the term "socialist," FYI.

The long and short of what I'm saying, and no one has yet to challenge this, is that most laypeople people use the term "fascist" as a way of hurling insults at someone whose political beliefs do not align with their own. In other words, it's a highly dramatic, downright hysterical, and utterly fallacious way of conducting political discourse.

Anyway, I haven't heard anyone else refer to Obama as "pro-fascist," so I'm going to call this as hysteria.

Munchkin...you need to see some of the other places I have been on the 'net...Obama has been compared to Hitler and David Duke and it's really disgusting...there is a bit of hysteria going on but thankfully it's not visible yet from GC.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Fascism is also opposed to Communism and Socialism, by the way.

In practice, this is wrong.

Fascism = in practice Communism

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the other great Commies of the 20th century were fascists. Especially by your standards of nationalism and readiness to go to war. F.A. Hayek said that "Socialism can be cut of any wood. A socialist can go through stages of fascism, theoretical communism, democratic socialism, etc".


This Machine kills Fascists.


I've become a big Woody Guthrie fan of late, especially the redo of his songs by Billy Bragg and Wilco in Mermaid Avenue.

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

It also encourages control of it's population through any means possible.

Obamas progressive taxation and willingness to assume more control over the wealth of a nation and with that, the freedom of a nation is fascism. Money is the means to live, the means to eat. If he assumes himself the dictator of what it is to live, that is fascism. Furthermore, his want to control medicine and health of the nation through Universal Health care which makes him even further in control of the American populace. I suppose you could claim him a Communist, but perfect Commies are for the eventual tearing down of the state.

Absolutely disgusting (although McCain is not much better, I always see economic control as a far worse thing than moral control)

I get hysterical
Hysteria
Oh, can you feel it (Oh can you feel it)
Do you believe it (Do you believe it)
It's such a magical mysteria
When you get that feelin' (When you get that feelin')
Better start believin (Better start believin')
Cause it's a miracle
Say you will, ooh babe
Hysteria when you're near

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TjPbeyHIO0


ETA: And I love munchkin's siggy