Second Presidential Debate

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by epchick

I know that there is like Medicaid and CHIP, but from what I understand you have to have a certain income level. If you go above that, then you become ineligible.

ETA: That has happened to my aunt before. My uncle is the sole provider for the family (2 adults and 3 kids, one being disabled), and he works for Denny's. My aunt tried to go back to work---for Walmart, and she was told that they couldn't be on the health care plan anymore because now they made too much money. So she stopped working so that the kids could stay on Medicaid/Medicare (whichever one is for the kids). Disability also is reduced for her youngest (who's legally deaf) when my uncle gets a higher paycheck than he should (like if he works overtime).

If your uncle works full time for Denny's, can't they be covered on your uncle's plan which wouldn't be tied to family income?

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Unfortunately, in a socialized system costs have to be contained in order that everybody can get care. That means that somewhere, there is a board that gets to decide who can get expensive procedures. In other countries, you can't go on dialysis if you are over a certain age. In this country, there are no limits to dialysis and every dialysis patient is completely funded by Medicaid. In other countries, you can not be admitted to the ICU if you are over 50 years old. If you stop breathing, you get to stop breathing without a ventilator to save you.

It's funny that you mention this...I was talking to a friend last night who thinks we should have socialized medicine. I was reminding him that my Canadian friends say that with socialized medicine, "you won't die," but the emphasis isn't on preventive medicine like it is here. I like the fact that I can call my doctor today and be assured a spot within the next week or so. I like the fact that older relatives can get preventive care. A lot of people, usually liberals, blindly believe that if US medicine became socialized, that we'd have the same quality of healthcare at a lower price. Wrongity wrong wrong wrong.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

It's funny that you mention this...I was talking to a friend last night who thinks we should have socialized medicine. I was reminding him that my Canadian friends say that with socialized medicine, "you won't die," but the emphasis isn't on preventive medicine like it is here. I like the fact that I can call my doctor today and be assured a spot within the next week or so. I like the fact that older relatives can get preventive care. A lot of people, usually liberals, blindly believe that if US medicine became socialized, that we'd have the same quality of healthcare at a lower price. Wrongity wrong wrong wrong.

Exactly! If we did have socialized medicine, we'd then have two different systems- one for free and the other with better care for a cost. We'd have to hear about how poor people don't get the same care, but there is no way you can do everything. Our resources are limited. We have too few doctors. Did you know that in Canada, doctors have a limit to the number of cases they can see in a year so once they see that many, you don't see anymore. Can you imagine not being able to see your doctor for 6 months because s/he already saw his/her quota for the year?

[epchick]

Originally Posted by AGDee

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/Obama...lthcareFAQ.pdf

That has the answers to the questions you're posing. It does say that both SCHIP and Medicaid would be extended to cover more families and working people.

I read that already, and no it doesn't answer the question. It says that all children must be covered, but it doesn't speak of taxing those who might not be able to afford Obama's new healthcare plan.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

If your uncle works full time for Denny's, can't they be covered on your uncle's plan which wouldn't be tied to family income?

My uncle doesn't have health care. I'm not exactly sure why, but i'm assuming it is because my uncle is an hourly employee and according to Denny's website "salaried" employees are eligible for health care.

ETA: now that I look more on the Denny's website, i'm sure that's the reason because he doesn't get any of those benefits.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

There are lots of ways to go into practice. A lot of hospitals are now buying up medical practices or hiring doctors to basically work as employees...something physicians in the past would NEVER have agreed to! My group is contracted by our hospital to provide radiology services. Radiology is also a field in high demand with a shortage of physicians...always a good mix for the radiologist!

My boyfriend's best friend AND his wife are both radiologists. They supposedly make in excess of $1 million per year.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

My boyfriend's best friend AND his wife are both radiologists. They supposedly make in excess of $1 million per year.

Probably do. Depending on where you work, you can make over $1 Mil a year. My area has much lower salaries due to competition. In South Louisiana, there is a Radiologist that was recruited from NYC who makes in excess of a million every year and has built up a huge practice. He owns his own plane and flies to NYC every weekend. At first, though, he had to work 24/7 because no one else was in the area. You get what you pay for.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by WarEagle07

I am wondering the exact same thing!! My husband and I are part of the demographic considered wealthy by Obama's standards but I can tell you that we are a far cry from wealthy. We live in that nasty income bracket where we get hit with the AMT every year so we can't maximize deductions, we don't qualify for financial aid so we pay out of pocket for kids colleges, we don't qualify for stimulus help, and we probably won't qualify for any of the amazing tax credits promised by either candidate. So once we pay our 'fair share' of taxes, pay tuition, pay medical bills, and dental etc there isn't a ton left over for us to be in any way considered wealthy. Yeah, we worked so hard and payed our way through college and worked long hours to get where we are at. It's like being penalized for achieving, in other words why is my hard work not valued as much as a middle class person's hard work by the government? Why is the upper-middle class now considered wealthy? If Obama wants to come see my 'truly wealthy' lifestyle, he can come cut coupons with me and I can drive him around in my car with 110,000 miles on and hoping that it will last another couple of years! On this point I believe that Obama is very much out of touch

I'm very sorry to have to tell you that you ARE wealthy. Really, I am sorry that someone has to tell you, convince you, of that. Just because your lifestyle eats up a lot of your income does not mean you're middle class. There are plenty of celebrities out there that blow millions on clothing, cars, bills, whatever...they're still rich if they had that money to begin with. Do you know what the median household income in the U.S. was last year? Just a little over $50,000. That's per household! You and your husband make FIVE TIMES as much. You may not be millionaires, or have money coming out your ears, but compared to the vast majority of Americans, you are wealthy. About 15% of the U.S. population lives below the poverty line, which is an unimaginable $24,800 for a family of five. I hope you thank God every day for how rich you are.

Here's something I think Americans are going to have to get used to: NOT paying for your kids' college education. So many adults in this country pay for their kids' education rather than their retirement. WarEagle, you and your husband have the luxury of having enough money to pay for your kids' education; most people in this country do not. It's wonderful that you're setting up your kids nicely so they come out of college with no debt, but that's a choice you're making; most kids take out loans. That's what I did. Just because you don't qualify for financial aid doesn't mean the kids can't pay for some of it - at least half. Trust me, they will appreciate it more.

[UGAalum94]

Not that my household income approaches Obama wealthy level, but I think there's a really important distinction in assessing wealth between people who rely on income, even high income, to live and people who have accumulated assets and real wealth and high income.

Sure, gross income of 250,000 is considerably more than average, but depending on where people live, it might really not be associated with a lifestyle most of us equate with "wealthy" or "rich" or actually provide on with the kind of assets that most of us think of as wealth.

I don't want people to continually have to reduce their assets by paying ridiculous amounts of property taxes or some other tax we could invent (capital tax, rather than just capital gains tax? I don't know), but it's funny to pretend that income about 250,000 is the real determiner of wealth when there'd be much better measures to couple it with.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Personally, I don't think anyone is going to be able to pass a comprehensive health care plan because the US is so different than any country with "successful" socialized medicine. Our patients (whether or not they have insurance) expect every test under the sun and perfect care. Unfortunately, in a socialized system costs have to be contained in order that everybody can get care. That means that somewhere, there is a board that gets to decide who can get expensive procedures. In other countries, you can't go on dialysis if you are over a certain age. In this country, there are no limits to dialysis and every dialysis patient is completely funded by Medicaid. In other countries, you can not be admitted to the ICU if you are over 50 years old. If you stop breathing, you get to stop breathing without a ventilator to save you.
The major problem with the cost of health care is the malpractice liability that causes physicians to practice "cover your ass" medicine rather than the evidence based medicine we all aspire to.

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

It's funny that you mention this...I was talking to a friend last night who thinks we should have socialized medicine. I was reminding him that my Canadian friends say that with socialized medicine, "you won't die," but the emphasis isn't on preventive medicine like it is here. I like the fact that I can call my doctor today and be assured a spot within the next week or so. I like the fact that older relatives can get preventive care. A lot of people, usually liberals, blindly believe that if US medicine became socialized, that we'd have the same quality of healthcare at a lower price. Wrongity wrong wrong wrong.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Exactly! If we did have socialized medicine, we'd then have two different systems- one for free and the other with better care for a cost. We'd have to hear about how poor people don't get the same care, but there is no way you can do everything. Our resources are limited. We have too few doctors. Did you know that in Canada, doctors have a limit to the number of cases they can see in a year so once they see that many, you don't see anymore. Can you imagine not being able to see your doctor for 6 months because s/he already saw his/her quota for the year?

I hope y'all aren't suggesting that Obama's plan is a move toward socialized medicine. His plan doesn't call for government-controlled healthcare which is what socialized medicine is. Under his plan, adults would have the option to select whichever health insurance provider they wanted/could afford. Those who can't afford private insurance would, supposedly, be provided a better Medicare/Medicaid-like option. Children would be required to be covered under some plan, so parents couldn't decide not to provide their kids with healthcare because they want to lease a new car or something.

I like his plan better than McCain's ridiculous $5,000 tax credit (which is supported through taxing the health care plan) which is completely worthless.

Neither plan is golden of course, but Obama's isn't socialized. It still calls for competitive PRIVATE insurance.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I hope y'all aren't suggesting that Obama's plan is a move toward socialized medicine. His plan doesn't call for government-controlled healthcare which is what socialized medicine is. Under his plan, adults would have the option to select whichever health insurance provider they wanted/could afford. Those who can't afford private insurance would, supposedly, be provided a better Medicare/Medicaid-like option. Children would be required to be covered under some plan, so parents couldn't decide not to provide their kids with healthcare because they want to lease a new car or something.

I like his plan better than McCain's ridiculous $5,000 tax credit (which is supported through taxing the health care plan) which is completely worthless.

Neither plan is golden of course, but Obama's isn't socialized. It still calls for competitive PRIVATE insurance.

You are right; it would not be socialized medicine like in other countries, but once the government begins to subsidize the system, even by paying for policies through insurance companies, the government isn't just going to hand over money without a lot of stipulations. They also will likely dictate how much they will pay the insurance companies per person, which in turn will limit the coverage given to the average American. There is no free lunch.

[preciousjeni]

Has anyone on GC been talking about McCain's comments at the rally? I know he kinda had to calm folks down for the sake of his campaign, but I honestly appreciate that he was decent enough to do it in such a strong way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf6YKOkfFsE

As I've said before, I have alot of respect for McCain and I think he really is a good guy.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by epchick

I read that already, and no it doesn't answer the question. It says that all children must be covered, but it doesn't speak of taxing those who might not be able to afford Obama's new healthcare plan.

When I read that Medicaid and SCHIP will be extended to cover more families, I interpret it as "Those who cannot afford to pay for other insurance will be eligible for Medicaid or SCHIP"

ETA: Regarding income. According to this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Househo..._United_States (yeah, I know, it's Wikipedia, but it's source is 2005 Census data) the number of households in the USA that make $250,000 or more is 1.5% 15% make more than $100K a year. It's pretty hard to argue that if you're in the top 1.5% of earners, you're not considered wealthy. I realize there are the Bill Gates' of the world who are unbelievably filthy stinking rich, but that's a major outlier when figuring out these statistics.

ETA Again: Just saw that clip that preciousjeni linked to above on CNN and yes, I am very glad that McCain told the truth there. He definitely did the right thing there.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Has anyone on GC been talking about McCain's comments at the rally? I know he kinda had to calm folks down for the sake of his campaign, but I honestly appreciate that he was decent enough to do it in such a strong way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf6YKOkfFsE

As I've said before, I have alot of respect for McCain and I think he really is a good guy.

McCain acknowledges that he is someone you should not be scared of....sad that he has misinformed people in his crowd...good that he is trying to educating them

[AOII Angel]

I was beginning to think that McCain had completely lost his integrity with this campaign. It sounds like he's sick of sinking to such lows. I'm proud of him for taking a stand. Convincing people that the other candidate is "scary" is so cheap.

[AGDee]

And, since we have so many threads about this election, I don't know where this one should go, but I'm disgusted by the news about ACORN:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/...ref=newssearch

More than 2,000 voter registration forms filed in northern Indiana's Lake County by a liberal activist group this week have turned out to be bogus, election officials said Thursday.