Second Presidential Debate

[epchick]

Originally Posted by AGDee

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/Obama...lthcareFAQ.pdf

That has the answers to the questions you're posing. It does say that both SCHIP and Medicaid would be extended to cover more families and working people.

I read that already, and no it doesn't answer the question. It says that all children must be covered, but it doesn't speak of taxing those who might not be able to afford Obama's new healthcare plan.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

If your uncle works full time for Denny's, can't they be covered on your uncle's plan which wouldn't be tied to family income?

My uncle doesn't have health care. I'm not exactly sure why, but i'm assuming it is because my uncle is an hourly employee and according to Denny's website "salaried" employees are eligible for health care.

ETA: now that I look more on the Denny's website, i'm sure that's the reason because he doesn't get any of those benefits.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by epchick

I read that already, and no it doesn't answer the question. It says that all children must be covered, but it doesn't speak of taxing those who might not be able to afford Obama's new healthcare plan.

When I read that Medicaid and SCHIP will be extended to cover more families, I interpret it as "Those who cannot afford to pay for other insurance will be eligible for Medicaid or SCHIP"

ETA: Regarding income. According to this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Househo..._United_States (yeah, I know, it's Wikipedia, but it's source is 2005 Census data) the number of households in the USA that make $250,000 or more is 1.5% 15% make more than $100K a year. It's pretty hard to argue that if you're in the top 1.5% of earners, you're not considered wealthy. I realize there are the Bill Gates' of the world who are unbelievably filthy stinking rich, but that's a major outlier when figuring out these statistics.

ETA Again: Just saw that clip that preciousjeni linked to above on CNN and yes, I am very glad that McCain told the truth there. He definitely did the right thing there.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Personally, I don't think anyone is going to be able to pass a comprehensive health care plan because the US is so different than any country with "successful" socialized medicine. Our patients (whether or not they have insurance) expect every test under the sun and perfect care. Unfortunately, in a socialized system costs have to be contained in order that everybody can get care. That means that somewhere, there is a board that gets to decide who can get expensive procedures. In other countries, you can't go on dialysis if you are over a certain age. In this country, there are no limits to dialysis and every dialysis patient is completely funded by Medicaid. In other countries, you can not be admitted to the ICU if you are over 50 years old. If you stop breathing, you get to stop breathing without a ventilator to save you.
The major problem with the cost of health care is the malpractice liability that causes physicians to practice "cover your ass" medicine rather than the evidence based medicine we all aspire to.

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

It's funny that you mention this...I was talking to a friend last night who thinks we should have socialized medicine. I was reminding him that my Canadian friends say that with socialized medicine, "you won't die," but the emphasis isn't on preventive medicine like it is here. I like the fact that I can call my doctor today and be assured a spot within the next week or so. I like the fact that older relatives can get preventive care. A lot of people, usually liberals, blindly believe that if US medicine became socialized, that we'd have the same quality of healthcare at a lower price. Wrongity wrong wrong wrong.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Exactly! If we did have socialized medicine, we'd then have two different systems- one for free and the other with better care for a cost. We'd have to hear about how poor people don't get the same care, but there is no way you can do everything. Our resources are limited. We have too few doctors. Did you know that in Canada, doctors have a limit to the number of cases they can see in a year so once they see that many, you don't see anymore. Can you imagine not being able to see your doctor for 6 months because s/he already saw his/her quota for the year?

I hope y'all aren't suggesting that Obama's plan is a move toward socialized medicine. His plan doesn't call for government-controlled healthcare which is what socialized medicine is. Under his plan, adults would have the option to select whichever health insurance provider they wanted/could afford. Those who can't afford private insurance would, supposedly, be provided a better Medicare/Medicaid-like option. Children would be required to be covered under some plan, so parents couldn't decide not to provide their kids with healthcare because they want to lease a new car or something.

I like his plan better than McCain's ridiculous $5,000 tax credit (which is supported through taxing the health care plan) which is completely worthless.

Neither plan is golden of course, but Obama's isn't socialized. It still calls for competitive PRIVATE insurance.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I hope y'all aren't suggesting that Obama's plan is a move toward socialized medicine. His plan doesn't call for government-controlled healthcare which is what socialized medicine is. Under his plan, adults would have the option to select whichever health insurance provider they wanted/could afford. Those who can't afford private insurance would, supposedly, be provided a better Medicare/Medicaid-like option. Children would be required to be covered under some plan, so parents couldn't decide not to provide their kids with healthcare because they want to lease a new car or something.

I like his plan better than McCain's ridiculous $5,000 tax credit (which is supported through taxing the health care plan) which is completely worthless.

Neither plan is golden of course, but Obama's isn't socialized. It still calls for competitive PRIVATE insurance.

You are right; it would not be socialized medicine like in other countries, but once the government begins to subsidize the system, even by paying for policies through insurance companies, the government isn't just going to hand over money without a lot of stipulations. They also will likely dictate how much they will pay the insurance companies per person, which in turn will limit the coverage given to the average American. There is no free lunch.

[AOII Angel]

I was beginning to think that McCain had completely lost his integrity with this campaign. It sounds like he's sick of sinking to such lows. I'm proud of him for taking a stand. Convincing people that the other candidate is "scary" is so cheap.

[AGDee]

And, since we have so many threads about this election, I don't know where this one should go, but I'm disgusted by the news about ACORN:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/...ref=newssearch

More than 2,000 voter registration forms filed in northern Indiana's Lake County by a liberal activist group this week have turned out to be bogus, election officials said Thursday.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by AGDee

And, since we have so many threads about this election, I don't know where this one should go, but I'm disgusted by the news about ACORN:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/...ref=newssearch

More than 2,000 voter registration forms filed in northern Indiana's Lake County by a liberal activist group this week have turned out to be bogus, election officials said Thursday.

That is very unfortunate, as is this:

New York election mixup: 'Osama' on ballot
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27122742/

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

That is very unfortunate, as is this:

New York election mixup: 'Osama' on ballot
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27122742/

It's just weird when you think about how many people probably looked at that ballot before it got printed or mailed out. How could that happen?

[ajuhdg]

Wow many points to comment on. I think CrackerBarrel said that 'you saw what you wanted to see'. My husband and I watched it and he kept saying, 'I don't know how ANYONE could want to vote for that idiot! He's making absolutely NO sense.' (referring to Obama). I explained that Obama supporters are probably saying the same thing about McCain. I don't expect to see ONE person on here or anywhere else who supports either candidate to say that the other one took it. Just won't happen.

My favorite part: Obama saying 'Tal-EEE-ban'. Everytime he said it we broke into 'Come Mr. Tal-ee-ban, Tal-e-me-ba-na-na'. I also wish that he could find another buzz word than 'fundamental'. VERY overused.

BO seemed like a robot. He would wait his turn, and then someone would flip his switch, and it was time to go back to work. HE reminds me of George Bush in his appearance and demeanor...he's smooth. Everytime he opened his mouth, I felt like I was in a high school auditorium listening to a speech for Senior Class President. 'You want Guns-N-roses blasted on the loud speakers every morning? SURE! You want pizza for lunch everyday? No problem! Elect me, and it will happen!' He just has NO passion to me. The more I see him, the more I think he's just playing the people.

For McCain, I felt bad watching him not sit down. Didn't think about the 'excitement' factor someone else mentioned. More that the effects of war on a person. All of you know my hubby's a disabled vet, he can't sit still to save his life....and he's more than half JM's age. I think with all he's been through it's really unfortunate opposers degrade his appearance.

Health care....wow...I hope that anyone who believes in a blanket government health care plan could visit another country that has it. I lived in Germany, and seeing some of the army wives go in and have babies scared me enough to come home and do it here. You get what you pay for, most definitely. While I don't think that health care is a privledge, I just don't see a logical way of being fair to everyone without SEVERELY sacrificing the quality of care, or driving the economy further in debt.

The comment about freddie and fannie, I didn't know who they were either until we bought our first house a couple of years ago. And, it wasn't even a thorough study of them. Just the first time I really noticed the name. Thank god they have nothing to do with my mortgage. I think it's funny that BO was bragging about proposing more crackdown on the two a year ago, like doing something a year ago would have really made a difference! But, it was probably when he decided he was going to run for office.

Just a few of my own observations...

Edited because I just read AGD's statement "My basic point is that health care is not nearly as cut and dried as "is it a commodity, right, privilege or responsibility?" SO TRUE!!!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by pbear19

Across the blogs the one consistent thing I'm seeing mentioned is the "That One" remark. In fact, I've seen the youtube clip of it about 4 times now. Funny how a little thing like that gets legs.

Same with the pundits I was watching. I'll admit I barely noticed it when McCain said it.

Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel

The only interesting thing to see will be if the media runs with McCain's mortgage bailout plan, it was the only new thing in the debate tonight and if it gets significant press time he wins for grabbing the headlines. If not, tie, which obviously favors Obama now.

Not sure it's that new. As I understand, the Treasurer already has the authority McCain was talking about -- it was in the bailout bill passed last week. The only thing McCain added was that he would direct his Treasurer to exercise the authority he already has.

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

Yawnnnn. . . . With the exception of one question, when asked first to McCain if health care is a privilege, right or responsibility? McCain responded that it is a responsibility which i completely agree with but he offered no real follow up at to who is responsible.

I would have liked to see one of the candidates -- either one -- turn this question around a little. First, I would have said it's not a commodity, at least not as that term is usually understood. And I agree with AGDee that it's a right in the sense of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." That's a government protected/enabled right, which is different from a right to have the government provide it. I would have like to see someone say "it's a right and a responsibility." Every human being should have access to adequate health care (right) and in a country like ours, we have a responsibility to make sure that adequate, affordable health care is available to everyone; then people (parents especially) have a responsibility to avail themselves of it.

Originally Posted by BetteDavisEyes

I have to admit that watching McCain shuffle around the floor was painful to watch. He looked every bit his 72 years of age. Scary!

I wanted to ask about that. I was tired when I watched the debate, so I couldn't decide if he was really looking (and sometimes sounding) that old or if it was just my fatigue that was projecting Sarah Palin doomsday scenarios onto his appearance.

I was interesting to watch it on CNN, with their Ohio undecided voters focus group and their dial meters. Granted, it was only 25 people -- hardly any kind of scientific sample -- but it was fascinating how often when McCain was talking, especially about the economy, he was literally "flatlining." He was getting no response at all. Even when he was getting positive responses, they usually were not as positive as Obama's.

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Not sure it's that new. As I understand, the Treasurer already has the authority McCain was talking about -- it was in the bailout bill passed last week. The only thing McCain added was that he would direct his Treasurer to exercise the authority he already has.

I just watched a forum on the financial bailout, and apparently the bailout bill allows the Treasury Secretary to "do what is necessary" to fix the credit crunch. So what needs to happen is that banks need to be able to sell their mortgage-backed securities to raise capital to make loans. Right now no one is willing to buy them because there is the perception that because banks have complex pricing models they have access to better information than do potential buyers about which securities are worth more and which are worthless, so there's the fear that if anyone tries to buy mortgage-backed securities that the banks will only sell the low value, highest risk ones. Because of this no one is willing to buy the securities off the banks for fear of getting worthless securities packages for prices much higher than they would be fairly valued. So there are two ways to address the problem. One is to authorize the government to buy securities, in which case the bank will sell the low-value ones to the government, giving the banks some money to loan and reassuring buyers that the securities the banks still hold are worth more. This is the plan that everyone has been focusing on and the one the government is likely to do. The other is the plan McCain mentioned last night, to authorize the government to buy and renegotiate mortgages so that people can start paying again and the highest-risk securities packages become worth more so that people are more comfortable buying securities from the banks. This idea hasn't gotten a lot of play in Washington, but a lot of business school professors and economists think that it would work better. So hopefully McCain's proposal to take that route will give it some traction in Washington.

[MysticCat]

^^^ Thanks for the info. I haven't had a chance (time?!) to delve into it all too deeply yet, so I appreciate any education I can get.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

^^^ Thanks for the info. I haven't had a chance (time?!) to delve into it all too deeply yet, so I appreciate any education I can get.

It doesn't help that it ended up being 450 pages! You almost wonder if they make it that big to discourage people from seeing what's really in there.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Health care....wow...I hope that anyone who believes in a blanket government health care plan could visit another country that has it. I lived in Germany, and seeing some of the army wives go in and have babies scared me enough to come home and do it here. You get what you pay for, most definitely.

THANK YOU for mentioning this! I hear a lot of people say that Canada's health care is so much better because it's free. Well, the Canadians I know prefer their American health care. Apparently the emergency care is a little better, meaning that you're not going to go into hock for a broken arm, but the preventive care sucks.

Health care shouldn't be a privilege in this country, but it is and I'm not sure how to make that better.