Science and Religion

[TexasWSP]

This would be a great question for your next tour guide.

[greekchef]

If, as a religious person, you believe God to be the creator of our universe and everything therein, then that means that God likewise created the very science with which we try to understand the universe. The mysteries unlocked by the scientist through their methodology are nothing more than part of the blue print of creation, and we are probably in most cases looking at too small of a chunk of any given part of that creation to see it in the context of the vastness of the universe. In other words, if we cannot see how that bit of science squares with faith it may simply be that we cannot comprehend the vastness of the "truth" of the universe. You cannot tell how a house will look when finished by looking at only the details pertaining to one corner of the laundry room. In the end, my faith is that science and faith do not contradict; that the conflict is the product of our inability to understand the mystery of creation. But that's what makes mystery "mysterious"! And a little mystery is a good thing!

[cheerfulgreek]

RU OX Alum and greekchef you both make valid points, but I seriously have yet to see a successful prediction about the physical world that was from the content of any religious document. It just seems like whenever people have tried to make accurate predictions about the physical world using religious documents they've been wrong. When I say prediction I'm talking about a precise statement about the untested behavior of objects or phenomena in the natural world long before the event takes place. Another thing I've noticed are the perennial claims about when the world will end, none of which have yet proved true.

At one time people actually believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that was because the creation of the Earth was aligned with the teachings of the Catholic Church and prevailing interpretations of the Bible, where Earth is created before the Sun and the Moon as described in the 1st several verses of Genesis. So, if you were created 1st, then you pretty much have to be the center of all motion. I mean where else could you be? Also the Sun and Moon were described to be smooth celestial bodies. But if you look through a telescope, you can see the Moon's surface is bumpy and rocky, the Sun has spots that move across its surface, Jupiter has moons of it's own that orbit around it and not Earth as once believed, and Venus goes through phases just like the moon. I don't want you guys to think I'm not a believer because I am, I just see contraditions that I'm curious about. Also, I'm not trying to imply that scientist haven't been wrong, because they have. Most scientific claims made will be disproved, due primarily to bad or incomplete data. I just think the conflict between science and religion exist because there are fields in which there's significant overlap between the claims of science and those of religion. It's just that it seems like the conflict between the two are also in some areas of physics, and in geology and biology because these sciences are pretty much sort of bound up with theories that provide natural, non religious explainations of the origins and development of the world as we experience it.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

RU OX Alum and greekchef you both make valid points, but I seriously have yet to see a successful prediction about the physical world that was from the content of any religious document. It just seems like whenever people have tried to make accurate predictions about the physical world using religious documents they've been wrong. When I say prediction I'm talking about a precise statement about the untested behavior of objects or phenomena in the natural world long before the event takes place. Another thing I've noticed are the perennial claims about when the world will end, none of which have yet proved true.

At one time people actually believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that was because the creation of the Earth was aligned with the teachings of the Catholic Church and prevailing interpretations of the Bible, where Earth is created before the Sun and the Moon as described in the 1st several verses of Genesis. So, if you were created 1st, then you pretty much have to be the center of all motion. I mean where else could you be? Also the Sun and Moon were described to be smooth celestial bodies. But if you look through a telescope, you can see the Moon's surface is bumpy and rocky, the Sun has spots that move across its surface, Jupiter has moons of it's own that orbit around it and not Earth as once believed, and Venus goes through phases just like the moon. I don't want you guys to think I'm not a believer because I am, I just see contraditions that I'm curious about. Also, I'm not trying to imply that scientist haven't been wrong, because they have. Most scientific claims made will be disproved, due primarily to bad or incomplete data. I just think the conflict between science and religion exist because there are fields in which there's significant overlap between the claims of science and those of religion. It's just that it seems like the conflict between the two are also in some areas of physics, and in geology and biology because these sciences are pretty much sort of bound up with theories that provide natural, non religious explainations of the origins and development of the world as we experience it.

My head hurts.

Science and religion ask different, but complementary, questions. If you're talking about creation (which is what you mainly seem to be talking about), science asks how the world came into being. Religion asks why -- was there a purpose, was there a creator? As many, many religious scientists would tell you, you're asking for trouble if you expect religious writings written millenia ago to have a modern scientific understanding. That misses the point completely.

To quote Anna Leonowens in The King and I: "The Bible was not written by men of science, but by men of faith. It was their explanation of the miracle of creation, which is the same miracle whether it took six days or many centuries."

And yeah, Mac's post was classic.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

At one time people actually believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that was because the creation of the Earth was aligned with the teachings of the Catholic Church and prevailing interpretations of the Bible, where Earth is created before the Sun and the Moon as described in the 1st several verses of Genesis. So, if you were created 1st, then you pretty much have to be the center of all motion. I mean where else could you be? Also the Sun and Moon were described to be smooth celestial bodies. But if you look through a telescope, you can see the Moon's surface is bumpy and rocky, the Sun has spots that move across its surface, Jupiter has moons of it's own that orbit around it and not Earth as once believed, and Venus goes through phases just like the moon. I don't want you guys to think I'm not a believer because I am, I just see contraditions that I'm curious about. Also, I'm not trying to imply that scientist haven't been wrong, because they have. Most scientific claims made will be disproved, due primarily to bad or incomplete data. I just think the conflict between science and religion exist because there are fields in which there's significant overlap between the claims of science and those of religion. It's just that it seems like the conflict between the two are also in some areas of physics, and in geology and biology because these sciences are pretty much sort of bound up with theories that provide natural, non religious explainations of the origins and development of the world as we experience it.

Sorry, but first, the Catholic Church did not WRITE Genesis. Secondly your sentence actually suggests that somehow the earth was created because of the teachings of the Catholic Church and current biblical interpretations. I'm not sure how you managed that. And finally, since the Catholic Church has absolutely no problem with scientific explanations of the creation of the universe, evolution and the like, I'm going to sit back and be amused by people who find it impossible to reconcile the two.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Sorry, but first, the Catholic Church did not WRITE Genesis. Secondly your sentence actually suggests that somehow the earth was created because of the teachings of the Catholic Church and current biblical interpretations. I'm not sure how you managed that. And finally, since the Catholic Church has absolutely no problem with scientific explanations of the creation of the universe, evolution and the like, I'm going to sit back and be amused by people who find it impossible to reconcile the two.

First of all, I never said the Catholic Chrurch "wrote" Genesis. Secondly Drolefille, I don't know why the Earth was created, but I know it wasn't created because of the teachings of the Catholic Church and current biblical interpretations. What I said, which you totally missed, is (to give you a better understanding) these religious claims and predictions, to me, have stalled or reversed the progress of science. A good example of what I was talking about is the trial of Galileo, where he showed the universe to be fundamentally different from the dominant views of the Catholic Church. In all fairness to the inquisition, however, an Earth centered universe made lots of sense observationally back then. With a full complement of epicycles to explain the motions of the planets against the background stars, back then, an Earth centered model had conflicted with no known observations. Furthermore, this actually remained true long after Copernicus introduced his Sun centered model of the universe a whole century earlier, which is why I said this whole thing was aligned with the teachings of the Catholic Church and biblical teachings. I never said anything about the Catholic Church "writing" the book of Genesis. "I'm not sure how you managed that."

Actually, all of that changed, of course, with the invention of the telescope and Galileo's observations of space. For his radical discoveries, which (like I posted earlier) totally conflicted with the Catholic Church and biblical teachings. So, Galileo was put on trial, and found guilty of heresy. Let me add, that he was burned at the stake for suggesting that Earth may not be the only place in the universe that harbors life. Finally, you may be speaking of the present day Catholic Church, and it may not have a problem with scientific explainations of the universe, evolution or whatever....but it did during the time I'm speaking of. So if you want to be amused by people who find it impossible to reconcile the two, fine....have at it.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

First of all, I never said the Catholic Chrurch "wrote" Genesis. Secondly Drolefille, I don't know why the Earth was created, but I know it wasn't created because of the teachings of the Catholic Church and current biblical interpretations. What I said, which you totally missed, is (to give you a better understanding) these religious claims and predictions, to me, have stalled or reversed the progress of science. A good example of what I was talking about is the trial of Galileo, where he showed the universe to be fundamentally different from the dominant views of the Catholic Church. In all fairness to the inquisition, however, an Earth centered universe made lots of sense observationally back then. With a full complement of epicycles to explain the motions of the planets against the background stars, back then, an Earth centered model had conflicted with no known observations. Furthermore, this actually remained true long after Copernicus introduced his Sun centered model of the universe a whole century earlier, which is why I said this whole thing was aligned with the teachings of the Catholic Church and biblical teachings. I never said anything about the Catholic Church "writing" the book of Genesis. "I'm not sure how you managed that."

Actually, all of that changed, of course, with the invention of the telescope and Galileo's observations of space. For his radical discoveries, which (like I posted earlier) totally conflicted with the Catholic Church and biblical teachings. So, Galileo was put on trial, and found guilty of heresy. Let me add, that he was burned at the stake for suggesting that Earth may not be the only place in the universe that harbors life. Finally, you may be speaking of the present day Catholic Church, and it may not have a problem with scientific explainations of the universe, evolution or whatever....but it did during the time I'm speaking of. So if you want to be amused by people who find it impossible to reconcile the two, fine....have at it.

I will indeed, and your exact wording was...

At one time people actually believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that was because the creation of the Earth was aligned with the teachings of the Catholic Church and prevailing interpretations of the Bible, where Earth is created before the Sun and the Moon as described in the 1st several verses of Genesis

Okay, so what we have here is you saying that people "believed that the Earth was the center of the universe" and that this "was because of the creation of the Earth was aligned with the teachings of the Catholic Church"
So, step one: you seem to suggest that it was the Catholic Church who first wrote and or interpreted Genesis, or was the first to teach the universe in that way. Step two: your wording is poor enough that you actually see to say that the literal creation of the Earth occurred because of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

You didn't actually succeed in saying your point until now.


Also, study Galileo, the whole thing was less about science and more about politics, yeah the Church was wrong, but it wasn't really the story you learned in school, very little of history actually is when it comes to that. Then again you may think that Columbus actually convinced Ferdinand and Isabella that the world was actually round and that this was a revolutionary idea. If so, I'm sorry.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Then again you may think that Columbus actually convinced Ferdinand and Isabella that the world was actually round and that this was a revolutionary idea. If so, I'm sorry.

Very true -- it was hardly a revolutionary idea, nor were Galileo's discoveries "radical." Pythagorus, Plato and Aristotle all taught that the earth was spherical. Eratosthenes did a pretty good job of estimating the Earth's circumference sometime around 240 BC. In the second century AD, Claudius Ptolomy plotted the Earth as a globe complete with latitudinal lines measured from the equator and longitudinal lines.

What Galileo brought to the table -- actually what Copernicus brought to the table -- was scientific support for the idea that the sun, not the Earth, was at the center.

And yet we still tend to think a little bit like the folks back in Genesis. Funny how we all know that it's the Earth that rotates and moves around the sun, but we still talk about the sun rising and setting, as though the sun is the thing that's moving. Interesting how we find no conflict with that traditional, even slightly poetic, way of thinking about it and what we know from science actually happens.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I will indeed, and your exact wording was...

Okay, so what we have here is you saying that people "believed that the Earth was the center of the universe" and that this "was because of the creation of the Earth was aligned with the teachings of the Catholic Church"
So, step one: you seem to suggest that it was the Catholic Church who first wrote and or interpreted Genesis, or was the first to teach the universe in that way. Step two: your wording is poor enough that you actually see to say that the literal creation of the Earth occurred because of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

You didn't actually succeed in saying your point until now.


Also, study Galileo, the whole thing was less about science and more about politics, yeah the Church was wrong, but it wasn't really the story you learned in school, very little of history actually is when it comes to that. Then again you may think that Columbus actually convinced Ferdinand and Isabella that the world was actually round and that this was a revolutionary idea. If so, I'm sorry.

ok

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

This would be a great question for your next tour guide.

Good lord, macallan, you almost just killed me. Totally choked on a grape when I chortled at this.