Fraternity Rush at Kansas

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by Kedzman

Throwing big parties and breaking the rules isn't unique or difficult. Rather, it is common and easy. Thus, you are members of common, lethargic organizations. You are like dinosaurs marching toward extinction and you don't even realize it. You laugh at hard work and embrace folly.

No, we aren't. Even if you threw out the parties on our side and awards on yours, I would challenge that our chapters are still better than the others. The ideals which my fraternity was founded on weren't to include everyone or to make sure everyone felt welcome. It was to provide those with a common purpose a chance to have a brotherhood. You may argue that the "traditional" chapters are elitist and have lost sight of their purpose, but I think that's entirely untrue. Yes, we probably are somewhat elitist and very selective. So were our founders. No fraternity that I know of was founded and then went out to try to recruit as many men as possible. The purpose was to unite those who had a common purpose, and that role is best filled by the elite (or elitist, however you see it) chapters. When more value is placed upon how many members you can get, or how many philanthropies you won (again, no where does my fraternity's history mention community service hours) or how you do at intramurals or any of these other qualities that nationals gives awards for, I'm pretty sure it's your houses who have lost sight of the fraternity's purpose. The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it. You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing. You have a tighter brotherhood by having very strict standards before a bid is given, nationals thinks you're being discriminatory. National Fraternities have tried too much to keep up with the "changing times" and it's them that lost track of what a fraternity is.

[nate2512]

Damn I go to the office, come back, and I'm already too late.

[nate2512]

Because everyone aspiring to be a true Southern Fratty Gentleman longs for this:

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by nate2512

Because everyone aspiring to be a true Southern Fratty Gentleman longs for this:

HAHAHAHA

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel

No, we aren't. Even if you threw out the parties on our side and awards on yours, I would challenge that our chapters are still better than the others. The ideals which my fraternity was founded on weren't to include everyone or to make sure everyone felt welcome. It was to provide those with a common purpose a chance to have a brotherhood. You may argue that the "traditional" chapters are elitist and have lost sight of their purpose, but I think that's entirely untrue. Yes, we probably are somewhat elitist and very selective. So were our founders. No fraternity that I know of was founded and then went out to try to recruit as many men as possible. The purpose was to unite those who had a common purpose, and that role is best filled by the elite (or elitist, however you see it) chapters. When more value is placed upon how many members you can get, or how many philanthropies you won (again, no where does my fraternity's history mention community service hours) or how you do at intramurals or any of these other qualities that nationals gives awards for, I'm pretty sure it's your houses who have lost sight of the fraternity's purpose. The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it. You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing. You have a tighter brotherhood by having very strict standards before a bid is given, nationals thinks you're being discriminatory. National Fraternities have tried too much to keep up with the "changing times" and it's them that lost track of what a fraternity is.

*standing ovation*

[FSUfiji]

Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel

No, we aren't. Even if you threw out the parties on our side and awards on yours, I would challenge that our chapters are still better than the others. The ideals which my fraternity was founded on weren't to include everyone or to make sure everyone felt welcome. It was to provide those with a common purpose a chance to have a brotherhood. You may argue that the "traditional" chapters are elitist and have lost sight of their purpose, but I think that's entirely untrue. Yes, we probably are somewhat elitist and very selective. So were our founders. No fraternity that I know of was founded and then went out to try to recruit as many men as possible. The purpose was to unite those who had a common purpose, and that role is best filled by the elite (or elitist, however you see it) chapters. When more value is placed upon how many members you can get, or how many philanthropies you won (again, no where does my fraternity's history mention community service hours) or how you do at intramurals or any of these other qualities that nationals gives awards for, I'm pretty sure it's your houses who have lost sight of the fraternity's purpose. The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it. You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing. You have a tighter brotherhood by having very strict standards before a bid is given, nationals thinks you're being discriminatory. National Fraternities have tried too much to keep up with the "changing times" and it's them that lost track of what a fraternity is.

damn some one give CB a national award or a trophy for this awesome ass post! couldnt have said it better **thumbs up**

[Kedzman]

The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it.

Fraternities are developing more leadership programs than ever before. In fact, many of those programs are designed to educate their members on how to facilitate leadership training and develop leadership attributes without putting them through "a hard pledgeship". You have a desire to develop leaders - so does Headquarters. Unfortunately, your idea of character development is humiliating people by hazing them. Preventing the humiliation of people is not being politically corrent - it's called treating people with dignity. Get a clue.


You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing.

The primary problem isn't that pledges are driving your drunk, underaged brothers around. The problem begins with the drunk underaged brothers. The fact that there are pledges driving them around is secondary, not primary. Trying to cover up risk management issues with a "pledge driving program" doesn't eliminate the risk management issue.

Poking holes in your logic is so easy it's silly. For some reason, you think you are the wise one - perhaps because you have some equally naive followers supporting the decades of bad traditions you have bought into.

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by Kedzman

The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it.

Fraternities are developing more leadership programs than ever before. In fact, many of those programs are designed to educate their members on how to facilitate leadership training and develop leadership attributes without putting them through "a hard pledgeship". You have a desire to develop leaders - so does Headquarters. Unfortunately, your idea of character development is humiliating people by hazing them. Preventing the humiliation of people is not being politically corrent - it's called treating people with dignity. Get a clue.


You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing.

The primary problem isn't that pledges are driving your drunk, underaged brothers around. The problem begins with the drunk underaged brothers. The fact that there are pledges driving them around is secondary, not primary. Trying to cover up risk management issues with a "pledge driving program" doesn't eliminate the risk management issue.

Poking holes in your logic is so easy it's silly. For some reason, you think you are the wise one - perhaps because you have some equally naive followers supporting the decades of bad traditions you have bought into.

I took a class through my school that had leadership development as a big portion of it. I came out without being remotely close to anyone in my class (except for one classmate who was my pledge brother) and without having learned a whole lot of leadership.

When I say hazing I don't mean getting the s**t kicked out of you or garbage dumped on you, we agree, that's pointless. But I am of the opinion that having extremely challenging and stressful activities that the pledge class has to go through as a group brings them together and makes leaders. And getting yelled at/screamed at/punished when you screw up encourages you to do better. There's another group that builds leaders the same way and has seemed to do pretty well with it too - the military. I'm sorry if you're offended that I think it's foolish to replace what has worked for centuries to build leaders with a series of books and workshops and kindness.

But clearly we'll never agree, so I'm happy I don't go to NIU and my nationals stay out of my house's way, you clearly feel the opposite, ok.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by Kedzman

The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it.

Fraternities are developing more leadership programs than ever before. In fact, many of those programs are designed to educate their members on how to facilitate leadership training and develop leadership attributes without putting them through "a hard pledgeship". You have a desire to develop leaders - so does Headquarters. Unfortunately, your idea of character development is humiliating people by hazing them. Preventing the humiliation of people is not being politically corrent - it's called treating people with dignity. Get a clue.

I didn't realize having a pledge drive so that he saves the life of other brothers was "humiliation." That's the only hazing CB mentions.

Good chapters don't need "leadership programs", they attract leaders themselves. These leaders fine tune their leadership capabilities within the chapters without needing some politically correct bullshit from nationals. We were forced by nationals as pledges (hazing, I guess) to attend a leadership workshop. The head of the meeting showed up and said "...there's not much diversity here." Straight from the asses mouth in his showing of disapproval. I looked around....buncha guys from Texas, some from all walks of life in Arkansas. Looked pretty diverse to me.

Nationals is a waste of money, good for nothing more than insurance.

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I didn't realize having a pledge drive so that he saves the life of other brothers was "humiliation." That's the only hazing CB mentions.

Good chapters don't need "leadership programs", they attract leaders themselves. These leaders fine tune their leadership capabilities within the chapters without needing some politically correct bullshit from nationals. We were forced by nationals as pledges (hazing, I guess) to attend a leadership workshop. The head of the meeting showed up and said "...there's not much diversity here." Straight from the asses mouth in his showing of disapproval. I looked around....buncha guys from Texas, some from all walks of life in Arkansas. Looked pretty diverse to me.

Nationals is a waste of money, good for nothing more than insurance.

I hate that BS, why would I join a group of people I have nothing in common with?

[TechSigmaNu]

First off, this thread discussion has strayed from the original question. Now after being "captain obvious", I would like to quickly address each of the statements you are all presenting.

1. National awards are good indications of chapters that have excelled in national agenda, thats a given. In a "world that is becoming flatter" (Book by Thomas Friedman), competition for good jobs and getting into upper-level academia is exponentially increasing. So to recognize chapters that push for good grades, community involvement/ service, and reducing risk is beneficial for the chapters and the members of those chapters. Do you think that every member of "XYZ" fraternity will get an interview from one of their alumni? (rhetorical). And fyi, there are leaders that born but a majority of leaders are developed, and I say that because someone said, "Good chapters don't need "leadership programs", they attract leaders themselves" and what you are doing is a "leadership program" as well.
2. I am a Sigma Nu as well and yes we do get a good deal of advice and insight from Headquarters about chapter operations, but I would like to say that if chapters don't change with the times then we are going to become non-existent. And honestly our National program has changed with the times for the better otherwise I wouldn't have joined. Personally I think the word hazing is used too frequently and could be used as an umbrella term to convict meaningless situations, BUT I think that "And getting yelled at/screamed at/punished when you screw up encourages you to do better." is stupid!! All that gets you to do is live life through repetition and not understand why the hell the screwed up. I have played basketball collegiately and I have had good coaches and ones that just yell and hope that it works out. The way you develop leaders is by putting them in REAL LIFE SITUATIONS!! And that is what Sigma Nu does, we have a program called LEAD and yes without creating situations to parallel the lessons it is useless, but it creates the types of steps necessary to develop logical, calm, and ethical business leaders of tomorrow!
3. Pledge driving is wrong but it has the right mentality behind it. We looked into the concept but using active members to do the action, but like Kedzman said it is redundant the problem lies in just not letting people get drunk and I have been too drunk too many times I am not the golden child by any means. But another thing you can try to create is creating a list of people that are able to drive and use them to drive the drunks around or maybe if you are cautious keep a box of labeled keys at the door monitored by the door check-in people.

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by Kedzman

The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it.

Fraternities are developing more leadership programs than ever before. In fact, many of those programs are designed to educate their members on how to facilitate leadership training and develop leadership attributes without putting them through "a hard pledgeship". You have a desire to develop leaders - so does Headquarters. Unfortunately, your idea of character development is humiliating people by hazing them. Preventing the humiliation of people is not being politically corrent - it's called treating people with dignity. Get a clue.


You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing.

The primary problem isn't that pledges are driving your drunk, underaged brothers around. The problem begins with the drunk underaged brothers. The fact that there are pledges driving them around is secondary, not primary. Trying to cover up risk management issues with a "pledge driving program" doesn't eliminate the risk management issue.

Poking holes in your logic is so easy it's silly. For some reason, you think you are the wise one - perhaps because you have some equally naive followers supporting the decades of bad traditions you have bought into.

So are you to say that you never drank underage. Are you to say that no Sigma Nu drinks underage? Which would you rather, a pledge driving around a guy, or a guy driving around drunk? We have risk management because there is always risk, you can't eliminate it, that's why we have such programs to reduce it.

Leadership skills can't be taught on paper. The only way to truly teach someone to lead, is put him through stresses that make him a better, more well-rounded gentleman. Gentleman aren't made leaders, they are born leaders, and those born to lead, need to find something to hone those leadership skills, they join great chapters of great fraternities.

[gtdxeric]

Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel

You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. If it's really about keeping brothers out of trouble, why not have a program where both brothers and pledges take a turn driving people around? This would ensure that you could keep the program going year round, not just in fall when you have lots of pledges.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by gtdxeric

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. If it's really about keeping brothers out of trouble, why not have a program where both brothers and pledges take a turn driving people around? This would ensure that you could keep the program going year round, not just in fall when you have lots of pledges.

I know a woman who used to be an advisor to her sorority had told the girls if they ever needed a ride to call her, and the national told her SHE wasn't even allowed to do so. The reasoning that was if a member - pledge, alum, or collegian - drove someone home, it put the liability burden on the sorority for anything that might happen.

I'm sure lots of chapters do have programs like this - because they care about their brothers'/sisters' safety - but sadly, they have to do it under the table.