ouch! anyone else's wallet in pain?

[TexasWSP]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

The oil cartel will be obsolete in 20-50 years... We will not be using oil anymore. I don't know what else we will be using--but it won't be oil... No matter what the oil companies think...

Eh, too many products are produced by petroleum for it to just disappear. The only thing that will make oil "obsolete" is if we run out of it.......and nobody knows when that will be, regardless of what "experts" report in the newspaper. As long as crude can be extracted from the ground it will be utilized to a great extent, even if it isn't needed for cars.

Even if it does happen in that time span, it isn't like oil and gas companies will be hurting. There are oceans of natural gas in this country that are just now being explored, thanks in part to things like horizontal/directional drilling, which is a very new technique.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

Eh, too many products are produced by petroleum for it to just disappear. The only thing that will make oil "obsolete" is if we run out of it.......and nobody knows when that will be, regardless of what "experts" report in the newspaper. As long as crude can be extracted from the ground it will be utilized to a great extent, even if it isn't needed for cars.

Even if it does happen in that time span, it isn't like oil and gas companies will be hurting. There are oceans of natural gas in this country that are just now being explored, thanks in part to things like horizontal/directional drilling, which is a very new technique.

Aside from plastics, what else will "petroleum" be used for? I am just tired of the "cartels" fixing prices and fools enjoying paying for it because there are NO other VIABLE choices. And it is my understanding from the journal "Science" that "accessible" oil in the Earth going to run out soon--in geologic time--maybe 100 to 200 years... Accessible means usable and not difficult to access without destroying the environment. To me, that is a short amount of time to use up natural resources given that humans (in their modern form) have only been on this planet for ~200,000 years. Do we really need that much carbon to function?

Did you hear about the stopped up toilet on the space station... LOL...

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Aside from plastics, what else will "petroleum" be used for? I am just tired of the "cartels" fixing prices and fools enjoying paying for it because there are other VIABLE choices. And it is my understanding from the journal "Science" that "accessible" oil in the Earth going to run out soon--in geologic time--maybe 100 to 200 years... Accessible means usable and not difficult to access without destroying the environment. To me, that is a short amount of time to use up natural resources given that humans (in their modern form) have only been on this planet for ~200,000 years. Do we really need that much carbon to function?

Did you hear about the stopped up toilet on the space station... LOL...

What are the other choices? I'm not being contentious, I'm just trying to find out if you know of other entities are having success with these options in the areas where we have the greatest need (autos, for example).

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

What are the other choices? I'm not being contentious, I'm just trying to find out if you know of other entities are having success with these options in the areas where we have the greatest need (autos, for example).

Whoops, I forgot the "NO other VIABLE choices"... Sorry...

[TexasWSP]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Aside from plastics, what else will "petroleum" be used for? I am just tired of the "cartels" fixing prices and fools enjoying paying for it because there are NO other VIABLE choices. And it is my understanding from the journal "Science" that "accessible" oil in the Earth going to run out soon--in geologic time--maybe 100 to 200 years... Accessible means usable and not difficult to access without destroying the environment. To me, that is a short amount of time to use up natural resources given that humans (in their modern form) have only been on this planet for ~200,000 years. Do we really need that much carbon to function?

I'm sure you can easily find a list of petroleum by-products. It's more than just plastics. I'm not arguing that oil is going to run out, I'm saying that crude production won't be "obsolete" in the amount of time you first indicated. Regardless, oil and gas companies are moving away from focusing primarily on crude production anyways.

Are you trying to say that oil companies blatantly create high gas prices for their personal gain knowing that the country has to pay for it?? Just asking....I kind of sense that from the "cartels" and "fixing prices" remarks.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

I'm sure you can easily find a list of petroleum by-products. It's more than just plastics. I'm not arguing that oil is going to run out, I'm saying that crude production won't be "obsolete" in the amount of time you first indicated. Regardless, oil and gas companies are moving away from focusing primarily on crude production anyways.

Are you trying to say that oil companies blatantly create high gas prices for their personal gain knowing that the country has to pay for it?? Just asking....I kind of sense that from the "cartels" and "fixing prices" remarks.

Brother, I think that is something that is sitting in the very back of many peoples minds. Along with the Bush family connections to gas/oil companies.
Not saying that it is true/correct, just that the thought is there. Perhaps "wonder" may be closer to correct term.

And I think many people have a section of their brain that many of those "wonders" stay filed away in.

[TexasWSP]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Brother, I think that is something that is sitting in the very back of many peoples minds. Along with the Bush family connections to gas/oil companies.
Not saying that it is true/correct, just that the thought is there. Perhaps "wonder" may be closer to correct term.

And I think many people have a section of their brain that many of those "wonders" stay filed away in.

Oh I agree totally. It's easy for people to think that...no doubt. Is it true? No, especially if you know and understand how oil and gas companies make their money.....which a lot of people don't really have a clue. It isn't coming from the gasoline that you have to put in your car, I'll tell you that much.

Also, oil and gas companies don't set the prices for oil and gasoline. Very common misconception, as evidenced already by AKAMonet's thoughts on "cartels" "fixing prices". I'll put it this way. The largest oil and gas company in the United States controls around 4-5% of the world's oil. You honestly think they are the ones "fixing" the price here? No. I mean good lord......our country is importing 75% of its energy. If you don't think distributors in other countries have a large hand in these high prices then I don't know what to tell you.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

Oh I agree totally. It's easy for people to think that...no doubt. Is it true? No, especially if you know and understand how oil and gas companies make their money.....which a lot of people don't really have a clue. It isn't coming from the gasoline that you have to put in your car, I'll tell you that much.

Also, oil and gas companies don't set the prices for oil and gasoline. Very common misconception, as evidenced already by AKAMonet's thoughts on "cartels" "fixing prices". I'll put it this way. The largest oil and gas company in the United States controls around 4-5% of the world's oil. You honestly think they are the ones "fixing" the price here? No. I mean good lord......our country is importing 75% of its energy. If you don't think distributors in other countries have a large hand in these high prices then I don't know what to tell you.

Brother;
You might enjoy this:
Our Own Oil Cartel
Terrence Jeffrey 6/4/2008
Contemplate this the next time you spend $60 or more filling up your tinny little car with gasoline made from imported oil: The U.S. government knows where it can get its hands on more untapped petroleum than exists in the proven reserves of Iran or Iraq, which have 136 billion barrels and 115 billion barrels, respectively.

This unexploited stock of crude is greater than what the U.S. Energy Information Administration reports is in the proven reserves of Russia (60 billion barrels), Libya (41.5 billion barrels) and Nigeria (36.2 billion barrels) combined.

It is more than Hugo Chavez's Venezuela has (80 billion barrels).

It is more than is now known to sit beneath the waters and sands of Kuwait (101.5 billion barrels) or the United Arab Emirates (97.6 billion barrels).

So, where is all this oil? And why aren't they pumping it?...............
http://www.caglepost.com/column.aspx?c=6622&pg=1


And would like to know what you think of this:
At $4, Everybody Gets Rational
Charles Krauthammer 6/6/2008
This is insanity. For 25 years and with utter futility (starting with "The Oil-Bust Panic," the New Republic, February 1983), I have been advocating the cure: a U.S. energy tax as a way to curtail consumption and keep the money at home. On this page in May 2004 (and again in November 2005), I called for "the government -- through a tax -- to establish a new floor for gasoline," by fully taxing any drop in price below a certain benchmark. The point was to suppress demand and to keep the savings (from any subsequent world price drop) at home in the U.S. Treasury rather than going abroad. At the time, oil was $41 a barrel. It is now $123.......................
http://www.caglepost.com/column.aspx?c=6664&pg=2

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Brother;
You might enjoy this:
Our Own Oil Cartel
Terrence Jeffrey 6/4/2008
Contemplate this the next time you spend $60 or more filling up your tinny little car with gasoline made from imported oil: The U.S. government knows where it can get its hands on more untapped petroleum than exists in the proven reserves of Iran or Iraq, which have 136 billion barrels and 115 billion barrels, respectively.

This unexploited stock of crude is greater than what the U.S. Energy Information Administration reports is in the proven reserves of Russia (60 billion barrels), Libya (41.5 billion barrels) and Nigeria (36.2 billion barrels) combined.

It is more than Hugo Chavez's Venezuela has (80 billion barrels).

It is more than is now known to sit beneath the waters and sands of Kuwait (101.5 billion barrels) or the United Arab Emirates (97.6 billion barrels).

So, where is all this oil? And why aren't they pumping it?...............
http://www.caglepost.com/column.aspx?c=6622&pg=1
And would like to know what you think of this:
At $4, Everybody Gets Rational
Charles Krauthammer 6/6/2008
This is insanity. For 25 years and with utter futility (starting with "The Oil-Bust Panic," the New Republic, February 1983), I have been advocating the cure: a U.S. energy tax as a way to curtail consumption and keep the money at home. On this page in May 2004 (and again in November 2005), I called for "the government -- through a tax -- to establish a new floor for gasoline," by fully taxing any drop in price below a certain benchmark. The point was to suppress demand and to keep the savings (from any subsequent world price drop) at home in the U.S. Treasury rather than going abroad. At the time, oil was $41 a barrel. It is now $123.......................
http://www.caglepost.com/column.aspx?c=6664&pg=2

Jon--dude may be right, but, the damage to the environment is so destructive that it would NOT be worth to drill this oil up. Yes, $4 a gallon. Should we be leaving a Carbon footprint that large when something other fuel source is on the cusp of discovery? I would rather make it "Mother Necessity of Invention"--and guess what, to be competitive, I think the US brain power is intelligent enough to make it a necessity to change how we all, globally use fuel...

Not saying dude is wrong, but I disagree with his tactic. I don't want any more platforms off California's coast... And you definitely won't get them off Washington state's coast--too many Greenpeace/ELF lunatics...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

Are you trying to say that oil companies blatantly create high gas prices for their personal gain knowing that the country has to pay for it?? Just asking....I kind of sense that from the "cartels" and "fixing prices" remarks.

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

As evidenced already by AKAMonet's thoughts on "cartels" "fixing prices". I'll put it this way. The largest oil and gas company in the United States controls around 4-5% of the world's oil. You honestly think they are the ones "fixing" the price here? No. I mean good lord......our country is importing 75% of its energy. If you don't think distributors in other countries have a large hand in these high prices then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't know you well enough to suggest your reading style, but to let you know something about me, I am a lot older than you think and pretty well-traveled. So first, the US does not allow cartels in its country, it fails to promote "free-trade" and capitalism. So that means foreign countries and possible governments have cartels--pretty much like drug cartels--the same with crude oil/gas. As such, they (namely OPEC) can charge whatever they want for oil. That is what I read, heard and saw in all the latest media. Our oil companies are being held hostage to whatever prices these fools charge us--thus they are passing onto the consumer...

The other issue was read in Science Magazine last year sometime that all ACCESSIBLE oil within environmental treaties is low overall. Now there are inaccessible fields and then there is environmentally destructive fields. But, I dunno? Shouldn't our R&D money be spent on better energy production uses? Maybe our cars won't be able to go as fast as a hydrocarbon vehicle, but there will be plentiful fuel using something different. And steam was going somewhere at the turn of the 19th century--who says it cannot be revisited with newer technologies? Also there are other forms of carbon based fuels--coal and organics (CH4 and EtOH) and even H2/He gases that can be better contained.

R&D is different now, given enough money--like the Gates Grand Challenge--with Warren Buffet $$$ many things can be accomplished. The company that makes it happen first, MIGHT be the most successful... Whatever happen to the Ansari [sp?] Prize?

[TexasWSP]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I don't know you well enough to suggest your reading style, but to let you know something about me, I am a lot older than you think and pretty well-traveled. So first, the US does not allow cartels in its country, it fails to promote "free-trade" and capitalism. So that means foreign countries and possible governments have cartels--pretty much like drug cartels--the same with crude oil/gas. As such, they (namely OPEC) can charge whatever they want for oil. That is what I read, heard and saw in all the latest media. Our oil companies are being held hostage to whatever prices these fools charge us--thus they are passing onto the consumer...

The other issue was read in Science Magazine last year sometime that all ACCESSIBLE oil within environmental treaties is low overall. Now there are inaccessible fields and then there is environmentally destructive fields. But, I dunno? Shouldn't our R&D money be spent on better energy production uses? Maybe our cars won't be able to go as fast as a hydrocarbon vehicle, but there will be plentiful fuel using something different. And steam was going somewhere at the turn of the 19th century--who says it cannot be revisited with newer technologies? Also there are other forms of carbon based fuels--coal and organics (CH4 and EtOH) and even H2/He gases that can be better contained.

R&D is different now, given enough money--like the Gates Grand Challenge--with Warren Buffet $$$ many things can be accomplished. The company that makes it happen first, MIGHT be the most successful... Whatever happen to the Ansari [sp?] Prize?

I understand that you are older....definitely know that from being around here for a while. I thought you were referring to oil companies here as cartels...trying to be snarky or what have you. My mistake. You are right though. They are charging us whatever they want. Do you blame them? We are relying on them for 3/4 of our energy and are too stupid to do anything about it.

I'd like to read the article you are referring to, it sounds good. Hell, it's probably written by someone that is close to oil and gas...I dunno though. Some of the geologists hired by big oil are the best in the world at what they do. I tend to believe them. The last study that I have seen personally by the USGS estimates that the ultimate recoverable resources of conventional oil, including natural gas liquids is at more than 3.3 trillion barrels. Of these, less than 2/3 have been consumed to date, with around 2.4 trillion barrels yet to be produced. Now, there are also vast resources of what O&G companies like to call "non-conventional" oil - possibly as much as 7 trillion barrels. This, however, is what will require advanced technology to produce....largely because it is inaccessible with current drilling techniques and would require great changes to the environment.

Now, I am fairly "unlearned" when it comes to the financial side of oil and gas, especially money allocations for R&D and such (I'll leave that to analysts, finance guys, accountants, etc)....but I do know that, collectively, the largest companies will spend upwards of 20$ trillion dollars over the next 25 years, roughly 3000$ for every person on earth with the hopes of developing clean, affordable, and abundant energy sources. You can check those figures with the IEA I'm pretty sure, the International Energy Agency.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Aside from plastics, what else will "petroleum" be used for?

A gazillion things use petroleum. You'd be surprised.

ETA: some photos of things made with/from petroleum