California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Uh, isn't there a debate on polygamy somewhere else?

Why muddy the waters any worse than they already are?

Because they will get muddied sooner or later. I'm thinking of legal reasoning and jurisprudence here, not ethics or philosophy. If a court wants to interpret equal protection rights to mean that a state cannot deny anyone the right to marry a person of the same sex, then the courts have to be prepared to consider a similar claim regarding multiple marriage. (Note that my example =/= polygamy, as I suggest all three parties being married to each other, not just the man to the two women.)

The question I'm asking is on what basis could or would a court say that the state has no interest in prohibiting same-sex marriages but does have an interest in preventing multiple marriages.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Because they will get muddied sooner or later. I'm thinking of legal reasoning and jurisprudence here, not ethics or philosophy. If a court wants to interpret equal protection rights to mean that a state cannot deny anyone the right to marry a person of the same sex, then the courts have to be prepared to consider a similar claim regarding multiple marriage. (Note that my example =/= polygamy, as I suggest all three parties being married to each other, not just the man to the two women.)

The question I'm asking is on what basis could or would a court say that the state has no interest in prohibiting same-sex marriages but does have an interest in preventing multiple marriages.

This is one of the major issues I have about this ruling - the CA Supreme Court has taken quite a broad view on equal protection, and doesn't seem to have thought down the road to the future court cases that will be brought pursuant to the ruling. It has nothing to do with my opinion on the matter, but I question the court's wisdom in speaking in such sweeping terms. If people are going to be in favor of judge-made law, as opposed to leaving things to the legislatures, then the judges have to be very careful in how they frame things.

Also, could everyone stop with the ridiculous criticisms of the Northern/Southern educational systems?

- graduate of the CT educational system who seems to have done ok, and who understands that there are some great, and not so great, schools in both the North and South.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'm thinking of legal reasoning and jurisprudence here, not ethics or philosophy.

I'll take your word for that, because the first thought I had was a propaganda technique called "transference" which basically is to point the discussion in a different direction in mid-stream in order to muddy the waters.

Like bringing up polygamy in a discussion of gay marriage.

Guess I don't see much of a commonality.

But go ahead, muddle away.

It's an open board.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I'll take your word for that, because the first thought I had was a propaganda technique called "transference" which basically is to point the discussion in a different direction in mid-stream in order to muddy the waters.

Like bringing up polygamy in a discussion of gay marriage.

Guess I don't see much of a commonality.

But go ahead, muddle away.

It's an open board.

The thing is, though, he wasn't muddling at all; he brought up some perfectly valid points. The thread isn't just a "do you like/do you not like gay marriage," it's about the court case that decided the issue in CA. When you look at the court's reasoning, it opens the door to the issues that MysticCat mentioned. Whether or not you see a commonality, when you read the court's opinion, it leaves things extremely wide open for skilled litigators.

It would be nice to talk about these things in terms of aspirations or optimal results, or to talk in vague terms about how things should be, where the argument should end. However, because of the setting where the decision was made, the legal reasoning issues raised my MysticCat are fairly important, to say the least.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

My own tradition (Presbyterian, and yes it probably colors my discussion of the subject) views baptism as the sign that God claims us as part of the covenant, not that we have faith in God -- sort of a New Testament circumcision. In those churches that practice infant baptism, baptism is baptism, regardless of the age of the recipient. Without question, faith is required of an adult in a way that it is not required of an infant. But either way, it is baptism, the same sacrament. (This is one reason I see many writings steer away from the term "infant baptism" and speak instead of the baptism of infants or the baptism of adults.)

I see the distinction you are making, although I would disagree with the statement that if a child is "christened," and "stays in the eyes of God" he does not need baptism. He doesn't need baptism because he has already been baptized, and those traditions that practice baptism of infants also hold that baptism cannot be repeated.

Yep, I'm Presbyterian (PCUSA) also, and was baptized on Christmas Eve when I was two months old. Presbyterians use the term baptism, never christening, and it can happen at any age and it will always be called baptism. This custom varies from denomination to denomination just out of custom and beliefs - none are "better" than the others.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

I find that the argument about where the line to be drawn is a sketchy use of transference, but also something that needs to be addressed.

Personally, I do not have an argument for why gays should be allowed to get married and not polygamists. I honestly am going to throw it out there and say that I don't see why it is illegal (polygamy), as long as the parties are 18 (the line is drawn there because that is when it is determined that people are ready to make adult decisions according to the law).... and everything else is perfectly legal. Secondly, legalizing polygamy provides protection to the Second-Third-Fourth-Fifth, etc wife that always get tossed around to some other husband on Big Love, cuz Roman Grant is a bastard! lol I digress!

However, if you have a good perspective, then I think it is a valid point of the discussion. To get gay marriage in this country, we will need to change people's minds, not just the courts, and people are not necessary logical, and often times use transference (courts sometimes too), so technically all forms of thought on the subject our valid, because either side is going to have to work on the people as well as the courts.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

The thing is, though, he wasn't muddling at all; he brought up some perfectly valid points. The thread isn't just a "do you like/do you not like gay marriage," it's about the court case that decided the issue in CA. When you look at the court's reasoning, it opens the door to the issues that MysticCat mentioned. Whether or not you see a commonality, when you read the court's opinion, it leaves things extremely wide open for skilled litigators.

Exactly. I'm convinced such lawsuits will be brought. If courts are going to go down this road, they have to anticipate the arguments that will be made based on their decisions. Legislatures have to consider them as well.

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Also, could everyone stop with the ridiculous criticisms of the Northern/Southern educational systems?

- graduate of the CT educational system who seems to have done ok, and who understands that there are some great, and not so great, schools in both the North and South.

Aw, but GonniePDT49 was leaving himself so wide open for it.

Nevertheless, out of deference to you, no more jokes.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Exactly. I'm convinced such lawsuits will be brought. If courts are going to go down this road, they have to anticipate the arguments that will be made based on their decisions. Legislatures have to consider them as well.

It seems simple in concept - the Court simply notes that current definitions of marriage (as between a man and a woman) violate equal protection requirements (presuming the CA ERA allows equal protection for homosexuals), and that the legal definition of marriage should include any two people.

Any other corner cases are not a protected class, at least not that I know of, and the Court prevents itself from future action (whether polygamist or simply relying on an alternate definition).

Now, this is clearly quite pie-in-the-sky (and doesn't really remove the problem of recognition between different states), as the Court has seemingly rejected such a "simple" solution to date and it would seem awkward to assume this didn't occur to the Court, but I certainly think it's possible to avoid any sort of snowball effect in such a ruling.