Obama effectively clinches nomination

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

See my earlier post. If he selects that shrill vindictive bitch, then he will be seen as weak and the Clinton era of lies, deceit, and liberal entitlement will continue.

Oh damn, maybe I should just go on and admit that I'm slowly becoming Republican. Those damn taxes do it to me every time...

He needs a white male from the South, or maybe the Rust Belt.

Not that I love taxes however thought should be given to:
When ever a "disaster" occurs, our hands go out.
When ever there is a problem with the interstucture, our hands go out.
When ever we look for a service, our hands go out.
Most of us who use any kind of mass transit, our hands are going out.
And all that money comes from just where?

We, the people, have been told so often that taxes are evil that we some times may just forget what pays for things.
And what other things get substituted for them.
Including debt.

[shinerbock]

Obama could do everything he promises too, and I still wouldn't want him as President. He would probably do a very good job as a borderline socialist leader, but that isn't something that interests me.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Not that I love taxes however thought should be given to:
When ever a "disaster" occurs, our hands go out.
When ever there is a problem with the interstucture, our hands go out.
When ever we look for a service, our hands go out.
Most of us who use any kind of mass transit, our hands are going out.
And all that money comes from just where?

We, the people, have been told so often that taxes are evil that we some times may just forget what pays for things.
And what other things get substituted for them.
Including debt.

I would contest that the hands going out, not the distaste for high taxation, is the problem here.

[scbelle]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Not that I love taxes however thought should be given to:
When ever a "disaster" occurs, our hands go out.
When ever there is a problem with the interstucture, our hands go out.
When ever we look for a service, our hands go out.
Most of us who use any kind of mass transit, our hands are going out.
And all that money comes from just where?

We, the people, have been told so often that taxes are evil that we some times may just forget what pays for things.
And what other things get substituted for them.
Including debt.

I couldn't agree more. There are some things that are worth our money... helping our neighbors after disasters, maintaining our infrastructure, maintaining a powerful military that answers our every beck and call... the line, "Freedom isn't free" comes to mind. While not everyone chooses to serve with his or her life, everyone serves our country by being a responsible citizen and paying taxes. Is is fun? No, but it is necessary. And in my opinion, it is a small price to pay to be able to enjoy the fruits of living in the best and most powerful nation in the world. Are there places where we can cut back? Absolutely. I'm very Christian, and as a result, I believe that it is in our nation's best interest to be good stewards of our fortune. That being said, I'm also led by the Christian precept of taking care of "the least of these." I'm all for open markets and capitalism-- to a point. When we become irresponsible and run over people, I draw the line.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by scbelle

I couldn't agree more. There are some things that are worth our money... helping our neighbors after disasters, maintaining our infrastructure, maintaining a powerful military that answers our every beck and call... the line, "Freedom isn't free" comes to mind. While not everyone chooses to serve with his or her life, everyone serves our country by being a responsible citizen and paying taxes. Is is fun? No, but it is necessary. And in my opinion, it is a small price to pay to be able to enjoy the fruits of living in the best and most powerful nation in the world. Are there places where we can cut back? Absolutely. I'm very Christian, and as a result, I believe that it is in our nation's best interest to be good stewards of our fortune. That being said, I'm also led by the Christian precept of taking care of "the least of these." I'm all for open markets and capitalism-- to a point. When we become irresponsible and run over people, I draw the line.

I believe in helping people too. I just don't think it should be at the end of a spear. Individuals and private entities are much, much, much more capable of discerning who is truly in need and who isn't. The government has a trail of horribly run social programs.

If freedom stops when we become irresponsible...what about abortion? Further, what good is freedom when it halts when times get tough? Individuals have a responsibility to look after the welfare of fellow citizens. The government doesn't have the responsibility of making everyone middle class.

[scbelle]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I believe in helping people too. I just don't think it should be at the end of a spear. Individuals and private entities are much, much, much more capable of discerning who is truly in need and who isn't. The government has a trail of horribly run social programs.

If freedom stops when we become irresponsible...what about abortion? Further, what good is freedom when it halts when times get tough? Individuals have a responsibility to look after the welfare of fellow citizens. The government doesn't have the responsibility of making everyone middle class.

What does abortion have to do with anything? And why must being a good neighbor and wanting to help people be "making everyone the middle class"? My point is that this trickle-down crap doesn't work. It should, in theory, but corporate greed often takes over. That's why the Republicans blocked an effort to tax the windfall profits of oil companies, yes? They know that the companies will only pass their tax bill onto consumers, thereby not really accomplishing anything for Joe and Jane Q. Consumer. That's the way the rest of corporate America works as well.

And what of freedom stopping when times get tough? That doesn't just happen economically, you know. My civil freedoms have been infringed upon by this lawless administration, yet I don't see you getting in a tissy about that one.

The way you phrase your answer makes me think you believe anyone who wants to tax wants to give money away and wants to live in a socialist government. I don't. I want to tax, but I want us to be wise about how we spend it. I don't think having some money put away for disasters is wanting to "make everyone middle class", or wanting to fund the military ( I would give the world to these people-- I live among them, and they deserve every blessing in this world for what they do every day) is making everyone middle class. I have a few ideas of my own as to what kind of programs need to be funded, but I think you'd be surprised at what is and what is not on that list.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by scbelle

What does abortion have to do with anything? And why must being a good neighbor and wanting to help people be "making everyone the middle class"? My point is that this trickle-down crap doesn't work. It should, in theory, but corporate greed often takes over. That's why the Republicans blocked an effort to tax the windfall profits of oil companies, yes? They know that the companies will only pass their tax bill onto consumers, thereby not really accomplishing anything for Joe and Jane Q. Consumer. That's the way the rest of corporate America works as well.

And what of freedom stopping when times get tough? That doesn't just happen economically, you know. My civil freedoms have been infringed upon by this lawless administration, yet I don't see you getting in a tissy about that one.

The way you phrase your answer makes me think you believe anyone who wants to tax wants to give money away and wants to live in a socialist government. I don't. I want to tax, but I want us to be wise about how we spend it. I don't think having some money put away for disasters is wanting to "make everyone middle class", or wanting to fund the military ( I would give the world to these people-- I live among them, and they deserve every blessing in this world for what they do every day) is making everyone middle class. I have a few ideas of my own as to what kind of programs need to be funded, but I think you'd be surprised at what is and what is not on that list.

I brought up abortion because you said freedom might extend only to the point where irresponsibility takes over. Well, considering that 9/10 abortions in this country are birth control decisions, I'd say we're facing an irresponsibility crisis in that regard. Thus, I see no reason why would shouldn't abrogate this "freedom" to put a halt to it.

Being a good neighbor has nothing to do with making others middle class. It also has nothing to do with massive governmental taxation and intervention. If you want to be a good neighbor, I don't think anyone is stopping you. If you want to go find 10 underprivileged people and purchase them healthcare, go right ahead. I salute you in your efforts to help fellow Americans. My problem is when you think others should be forced to do the same.

The Republicans blocked the windfall profits tax because it is the biggest load of $%&@ we've encountered recently. Even NPR noted that this was 99% political posturing. It is a blatant attempt by Democrats to blame this energy crisis on the industry, thus garnering political points by inciting class dispute. It is pure dog crap, and every elected Democrat knows it.

What freedoms of yours were infringed by this "lawless" administration? Please provide a list of YOUR civil rights which were violated by the Bush administration. Also, even if your charges are true, how is this a sound argument? Someone violated your civil rights, so we should extend that lawlessness as far as possible? Give me a break.

I absolutely agree that taxation is necessary. My problem is with the rate of taxation and who receives the benefit of that taxation. I'm not a diehard libertarian who thinks I should get to decide how every dollar is spent, but I do believe the government has done a piss-poor job with entitlement programs, and the idea of increased social welfare is bound for failure. There are things the government absolutely should provide for, like the common defense. It is the absurd extension of "general welfare" that I'm concerned with. It not only strips away the autonomy of citizens to determine who they wish to be charitable to, it also engenders subordination and personal irresponsibility. Further, it strips individuals of the responsibility they have to take care of their fellow Americans. That responsibility entails not only generosity, but also requires them to monitor how their resources are being managed by the recipient. This is the aspect of welfare at which the government so blatantly fails.

[RU OX Alum]

Just because you disagree with something doesn't make it irresponsible.

Abortions aren't wrong just because some slack jawed "pastor" says so.

Increasing the human population in the name of your "god" is irresponsible.