Student voted out of classroom!!!

[MysticCat]

As the father of an Aspie kid, I can't even begin to describe how utterly mindblowing and saddening this is. Fortunately, I can say that the teachers in our public school experience have been the polar opposite of this ignoramus.

I found this line in the second story linked particularly interesting:

"She said she then asked him to listen to what the children didn't like about the things he did, and she asked him how it made him feel."

Clearly she is not only clueless about disciplining kindergarterners in general, but she is clueless about Aspergers and how kids with Aspergers think and process information. I understand as well as anyone the challenges that these kids can present (though, again fortunately, our son never had these same kinds of discipline problems and frequent trips to the principal's office), but she's supposed to be the adult in the situation.

Just beyond sad.

[33girl]

ok, I read this over again, and what I get is he isn't "officially" diagnosed yet - he's in the process? MC, how long does that take?

I mean, it almost sounds like he's been having disciplinary problems and they are trying to find a disability that goes along with it.

Here's another article - while the voting was a bad idea by any stretch of the imagination, this article clarifies that it was only for the DAY - not forever.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/treasur...id=inform_artr

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by 33girl

ok, I read this over again, and what I get is he isn't "officially" diagnosed yet - he's in the process? MC, how long does that take?

I mean, it almost sounds like he's been having disciplinary problems and they are trying to find a disability that goes along with it.

Here's another article - while the voting was a bad idea by any stretch of the imagination, this article clarifies that it was only for the DAY - not forever.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/treasur...id=inform_artr

it doesn't matter how long it was for

[33girl]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

it doesn't matter how long it was for

Yes it does - the first article makes it sound like a teacher and 16 5 year olds are allowed to in effect expel a student! That just makes no sense but it does make the article more sensationalistic.

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by 33girl

ok, I read this over again, and what I get is he isn't "officially" diagnosed yet - he's in the process? MC, how long does that take?

I mean, it almost sounds like he's been having disciplinary problems and they are trying to find a disability that goes along with it.

Here's another article - while the voting was a bad idea by any stretch of the imagination, this article clarifies that it was only for the DAY - not forever.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/treasur...id=inform_artr

An hour, a day, a week, who really cares? This kid is in kindergarten, his best friend in the class voted him against him. No five year old autistic or not, no matter how bad the kid's behavior was, what this teacher did was unacceptable and she shouldn't be allowed to teach kids again as long as she lives.

[RU OX Alum]

yeah, i mean, how objective can a "vote" amongst five-year-olds be anyway?

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

yeah, i mean, how objective can a "vote" amongst five-year-olds be anyway?

its probably a lot worse on a five year than you say, you getting voted out of your workplace or something.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by nate2512

its probably a lot worse on a five year than you say, you getting voted out of your workplace or something.

Right, because little kids don't understand nuance or complexities of a situation like this. All this little five year old boy knows is that his friends don't like him anymore and don't want him to go to school with them.

[Nanners52674]

Originally Posted by nate2512

An hour, a day, a week, who really cares? This kid is in kindergarten, his best friend in the class voted him against him. No five year old autistic or not, no matter how bad the kid's behavior was, what this teacher did was unacceptable and she shouldn't be allowed to teach kids again as long as she lives.

Wow for the first time ever i completly agree with your stance on an issue. . . This scares me. . . Greatly

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

Wow for the first time ever i completly agree with your stance on an issue. . . This scares me. . . Greatly

ha, its not too bad. I apologize but i tend to be very opinionated.

From the 2nd article posted

...Portillo told police that Alex had twice been removed from her class that day for misbehaving. She said he threw his crayons and was lying on the classroom floor, kicking the tables while other students worked on their assignments. A school resource officer, who responded to the classroom, said he saw Alex under a table....

...A school resource officer at Morningside wrote in the police report that he often works with Alex at a desk in the school office. He noted that Alex does well one-on-one, but will tear up his homework, kick the wall and lie on the floor when no one is paying attention to him.

Ok, I'm not making excuses for the teacher, but this is what it sounds like to me.

1. This kid was having a really bad day
2. His documented behavior was a disruption to his classmates learning environment and he was sent out.
3. It sounds like it's a consistent thing that this kid needs constant one-on-one attention to get work done
4. After sending the kid out, he was returned to class, at that point the teacher did this whole "vote" thing which to me, reads as follows:
   
   
   1. The teacher wanted the student to know how his behavior affected his classmates, hence the whole, "tell him what you don't like about him"
   2. The vote was not "Should he be allowed in our class", it was "should he be allowed in RIGHT NOW. Which indicates to me she was hinting that maybe he needed more time to cool off, reflect on his actions, etc.
   
   

Now, I don't have a Spec. Ed degree or certification, so I can't speak to how this situation would affect the kid's psyche. I also don't think that kids at that age have a good idea of the consequences of their actions, let alone how it would affect someone else, so the idea of trying to "shame" him into better behavior using critiques of his peers is most likely not appropriate. Do I agree with the steps the teacher used? I'd agree with it for my classes of HS freshman and sophomores but not for kids that young.

All that being said, does this teacher have a SPED cert? If not, in my opinion, its not entirely fair to paint her with a broad brush, just because she's not up to date with the Autism Spectrum. I took one class in the Ed School addressing SPED kids. To be honest, if I wanted to work in a classroom with SPED kids, I'd have pursued that endorsement. I have a student in one of my classes that is autistic, and it is a daily drain on me. He exhibits some of the same behavior as this student, if I'm standing over him, working with him exclusively, I can get work done. The second I move away, he's off task. Fortunately, he's in my smallest class so I can spend more one-on-one time with him, but if he was in some of my larger, more boisterous classes, heaven knows how it would go.

Which is why I'm not a huge fan of Inclusion. I wasn't when I was a PE major and I'm still not as a classroom teacher. I understand that children with disabilities have the right to receive the highest quality education that their disability allows, but when it comes at the detriment of their classmates, who is that fair to? If a kid goes to a resource room for English and Math instruction, why should they be placed in a Science or Social Studies classroom, where those skills are essential parts of the instruction? Just my feelings.

Kitso
KS 361

[33girl]

Originally Posted by wreckingcrew

Which is why I'm not a huge fan of Inclusion. I wasn't when I was a PE major and I'm still not as a classroom teacher. I understand that children with disabilities have the right to receive the highest quality education that their disability allows, but when it comes at the detriment of their classmates, who is that fair to? If a kid goes to a resource room for English and Math instruction, why should they be placed in a Science or Social Studies classroom, where those skills are essential parts of the instruction? Just my feelings.

Kitso
KS 361

But isn't part of the problem the fact that kids w/ Asperger's ARE quite intelligent & have high IQs once you get past the behavior issues? I mean, I don't think it would be fair to them to have to sit in a classroom w/ kids who are 7 & still don't know the alphabet.

I don't know how big this school district is but you only have so much $ & so many teachers & classrooms.

[ASUADPi]

Originally Posted by wreckingcrew

All that being said, does this teacher have a SPED cert? If not, in my opinion, its not entirely fair to paint her with a broad brush, just because she's not up to date with the Autism Spectrum. I took one class in the Ed School addressing SPED kids. To be honest, if I wanted to work in a classroom with SPED kids, I'd have pursued that endorsement. I have a student in one of my classes that is autistic, and it is a daily drain on me. He exhibits some of the same behavior as this student, if I'm standing over him, working with him exclusively, I can get work done. The second I move away, he's off task. Fortunately, he's in my smallest class so I can spend more one-on-one time with him, but if he was in some of my larger, more boisterous classes, heaven knows how it would go.

Which is why I'm not a huge fan of Inclusion. I wasn't when I was a PE major and I'm still not as a classroom teacher. I understand that children with disabilities have the right to receive the highest quality education that their disability allows, but when it comes at the detriment of their classmates, who is that fair to? If a kid goes to a resource room for English and Math instruction, why should they be placed in a Science or Social Studies classroom, where those skills are essential parts of the instruction? Just my feelings.

I don't mean to call you out, but seriously your statements just irked me. If you walked into the teaching profession "assuming" that every child would be "normal", you might want to rethink the teaching profession as a whole. Whether you have a kid with an IEP or not, YOU WILL have a special needs child (of some kind) in your classroom.

Using the excuse "if I wanted to teach it I would have gotten the endorsement", its just that, an excuse. IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act) and FAPE (free and appropriate education) guarantee these children the right to an education in their lease restrictive environment

I apologize for sounding completely bitchy and pissed, but it irks me to no end with teachers who have absolutely no patience for special needs students and would rather they "not be in their classroom".

And obviously you aren't seeing the positive a special needs child can be in your classroom. I taught 3rd grade last year (07-08) and I started out the year with 5 sped kiddos (3 SLD/1 Asbergers/ADHD and 1 Bipolar). First off, I have a very strict discipline regiman (I start out incredibly tough and lighten up throughout the course of the year). My students know that I am boss. I placed a sped kiddo in each group, so that my students understood that they would have to work with kids that were a bit slower than them. I ended the school year with only 2 sped kiddos (due to 3 kids leaving the district) and my class were amazing with them. They were willing to help them (without being asked by me), they would volunteer when asked. They learned patience. There are positives from having sped students in your room, but first off you have to stop dwelling on the negatives and look at the positives that that child can bring to your class..

BTW my comments are coming from a person who has taught 2 years in a special education self-contained setting and two years regular education (with sped students in my rooms). I am not only certified in Elementary Education but also Special Education Cross-Categorical.

Feel free to disagree with my comments. Feel free to argue with me . Thats fine

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by 33girl

ok, I read this over again, and what I get is he isn't "officially" diagnosed yet - he's in the process? MC, how long does that take?

I mean, it almost sounds like he's been having disciplinary problems and they are trying to find a disability that goes along with it.

Here's another article - while the voting was a bad idea by any stretch of the imagination, this article clarifies that it was only for the DAY - not forever.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/treasur...id=inform_artr

What bothers me the most is that the teacher essentially asked the students to tell the boy what they thought of him...specifically what they don't like about him. We all know little kids can be mean. A kindergarten teacher should know that five year olds don't really have empathy yet...they're honest, but not very good at censoring themselves or determining what's not a good thing to say. She didn't ask them how it made them feel when Alex acted out, she asked them what they didn't like about him and what he was doing - those are two very different questions when asked to very small children, and they're going to get very different responses. And she actually called on each student and put them on the spot?

The voting is another problem (what is this, Survivor?) for a couple reasons. First, she put Alex's classmates in the role of punisher. Second, I doubt the kids (and Alex) really felt she was asking them about removing him from the classroom for the day. She may have phrased it that way, but knowing the way kids are, once they shared all their dislikes about Alex, they probably wanted to vote him out for good if they had that power. And that's certainly what Alex was left with after all was said and done.

This teacher sounds like she has NO grasp on the mind of a five year old, and no basic regard for decency. Not to mention no understanding of autism, which is surprising in this day and age when autism is being diagnosed more and more. She's the one that should be voted off the island!

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

As the father of an Aspie kid, I can't even begin to describe how utterly mindblowing and saddening this is. Fortunately, I can say that the teachers in our public school experience have been the polar opposite of this ignoramus.

I found this line in the second story linked particularly interesting:

"She said she then asked him to listen to what the children didn't like about the things he did, and she asked him how it made him feel."

Clearly she is not only clueless about disciplining kindergarterners in general, but she is clueless about Aspergers and how kids with Aspergers think and process information. I understand as well as anyone the challenges that these kids can present (though, again fortunately, our son never had these same kinds of discipline problems and frequent trips to the principal's office), but she's supposed to be the adult in the situation.

Just beyond sad.

Are we certain that the teacher ever had any indication that the child had the "autism-spectrum disorder" he was (later) diagnosed with?

If she did not, and if the problems were repeated (and without any accompanying diagnoses to help explain the behavioral issues), I can see where the teacher would resign to a more direct, hands-on approach (although I do agree, the apparent utility of her approach seems hilariously low).

I feel bad for the teacher to an extent, because it appears she will be tried in the Court of Public Opinion under the guise of a post-hoc analysis (and diagnosis) that she may not have understood or even had any awareness of.