Tiers...

[Firehouse]

Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel

Ummmm, no. Just no. Like stop trying no. The only "strong fraternity systems" in the ACC are UVA, UNC, Clemson and kind of maybe parts of FSU's. The south has the SEC which has the strongest fraternity systems in the country, much less the region.

What awful Greek system have you been looking at recently that makes GT 's seem "strong"?

And that being said, there are almost never as many as 5 top tier houses. Top-tier means elite, and to go with your example of a 20 house system, a quarter of it isn't elite. The bottom tier is also a lot bigger than you think it is. There are some houses that will be bottom-tier almost anywhere and more that are campus specific, but the bottom tier will most of the time be at least twice the size of the top tier. And divide the middle tier into upper-middle and lower-middle at least.

At most schools outside the south, no house on campus would even sniff the top-tier at a southern school. Possibly not the middle tier either.

Crackerbarrel, with respect, perhaps we need to define why it is that you find "southern" fraternities superior to all other fraternities and fraternity systems.

You asked what makes Georgia Tech's system strong (and your implication that it is not). Georgia Tech's system is very old with very well established chapters; they are well housed, stable, large chapters and fraternity men populate student government and all major leadership positions. Tech has 31 fraternities - all big, solid nationals - and outside of Virginia Tech or possibly U-Florida that's probably the most in the south.

Yes, fraternities at most SEC schools are very well established and strong, but the "southern" fraternity systems are no more or less dominating of their campuses than the fraternity systems at: Missouri, Texas, Texas Tech, Kansas, Kansas State, Nebraska, Indiana, Illinois, Oklahaom, Oklahoma State, Cornell, Penn State, Southern California, Arizona...
In fact, I'd say the fraternity system at U-Arizona is probably stronger all-around than any in the south except Alabama (which has no peer in my opinion), Auburn and possibly Ole Miss. Even then, it's close and arguable.
The Betas at Oklahoma have 150 members plus 50 pledges and live in a house more majestic and awe-inspiring than any - any- in the south. You'd have a hard tme saying they are not "elite".
I love the south and I'm a fan of SEC fraternities, but the SEC fraternity systems are not superior to great fraternity systems in other parts of the country.

As far as your comment that "Top Tier means elite" and that "five out of 20 are not elite"...I respectfully disagree. The top 20% of any large system will tend to be elite. The top men tend to be drawn to the top fraternities. Claiming to be "selective" is something anyone can do. Being selective is only a virtue if you get selected back by the top rushees. On a big campus with a lot of rushees and a large number of fraternities, there are enough "elite" types to populate pledge classes for all the Tier I fraternities.
And, with respect, the truely bottom Tier III is always small, becasue bad fraternities tend to go out of business. The worst ones will fail and drop out of the system.
You may be exactly right about two levels in Tier II, but most people don't make the distinction among those in the middle.

Again, this discussion of your points comes back to how YOU define a superior fraternity system. If it depends to you on how many guys wear pastel shirts, then we'll have to agree to disagree about fraternities and their relative strengths. I respect your enthuiasm for fraternities and I have no doubt you are a stalwart and generous supporter of your chapter.

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

The Betas at Oklahoma have 150 members plus 50 pledges and live in a house more majestic and awe-inspiring than any - any- in the south. You'd have a hard tme saying they are not "elite".

They're Betas and they go to Oklahoma. I'll say it, nothing remotely elite about that. Also they aren't even a top-tier house at OU.

And I don't care how many people on campus are Greek, if there is nothing elite about those greeks (cough, PSU, 'Zona) then the whole campus being Greek is no different than the whole campus being GDIs. Sorry, but if you don't see anything other than having lots of houses and lots of people in them as being what makes a strong Greek system than we will never agree.

But I'll just go ahead and say that Texas is essentially a southern school, and they have an elite Greek system. Everywhere else you named is awful (although a lot are probably better than GT, since engineering students tend to be sooooo top-tier!!).

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

I understand where you're coming from Firehouse, but I disagree on a couple counts.
UF is the only system I know well enough to really comment on this for. The fraternity and sorority systems depend on each other for tier status.

26 IFC fraternities
16 NPC sororities

Each year, 10 fraternities are left with no homecoming partner. They'll start tier3.
There are two or three sororities that are on the very bottom. That means they only interact socially with two or three fraternities who get homecoming partners. That means the three fraternities that are paired with these three sororities are tier3 as well.
Recap: 13 tier3 fraternities, 50% of IFC

We have about 6 top sororities, so we can only support 6-7 tier1 fraternities. As long as socials continue between the top groups, they will stay there.
Recap: 6 tier1 fraternities, 25% of IFC

If you're not tier1 or tier3, you're tier2. At my school, it matters very much if you're at the top or bottom of tier2. It might just be that the system here is going through a strange transition period though. We have maybe three elite chapters, but others can be considered top tier because the sorority counterparts need them to be. The difference between the top of tier1 and the bottom of tier1 is fairly significant.
Recap: 7 tier2 fraternities, 25% of IFC

UF doesn't have 6 or 7 top tier houses. It's SAE and KA as tier 1 and EX and ATO as tier 1.1. Then tier two starts. That's pretty clear just from visiting a few times.

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

Did you miss this part of my post?

"We have maybe three elite chapters, but others can be considered top tier because the sorority counterparts need them to be. The difference between the top of tier1 and the bottom of tier1 is fairly significant."


Edit: Also, you are wrong. With a system as big as UF's there simply cannot be an entire tier consisting of two houses.

I'm saying that all 4 of them are top-tier, but SAE and KA are better than EX and ATO. But anyways, yes there can. Top-tier has to do with a few specific qualities, you don't become a top-tier house just because someone has to be. Tiers are a description, not an actual structure. There are plenty of schools that have no top-tier houses.

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

The Betas at Oklahoma have 150 members plus 50 pledges and live in a house more majestic and awe-inspiring than any - any- in the south.

Can you post a picture of that house, cause thats hard to believe.

[Firehouse]

Originally Posted by nate2512

Can you post a picture of that house, cause thats hard to believe.

Sure:
IFC Chapters
http://studentlife.ou.edu/content/view/138/

Try this link for their rush bruchure:
http://oubeta.org/Rush/2007%20Rush%20Book.pdf

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

There's one in the "Post a picture of your fraternity/sorority house" thread, and it really is amazing. Like a small castle, really.
But I think the SEC schools have the whole package- houses, lawns, decks, pavillions, etc.

EDIT: Here it is.

I'm sorry, but there is nothing good about that house.

The stone helps matters because it DOES look like a castle.

However I prefer houses to look like they're on the edge of the Golf course at a country club, not castles. Where are the places to practice your golf or sit out front and have a beer?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

running in/

That's beautiful. I'm a columns fanatic.

/running out

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

running in/

That's beautiful. I'm a columns fanatic.

/running out

Same here.

But not stone colored columns.

I would actually like the house alot more if it had really nice landscaping and some sort of place to drink/eat and they painted it white.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Same here.

But not stone colored columns.

I would actually like the house alot more if it had really nice landscaping and some sort of place to drink/eat and they painted it white.

Yeah the stone colored column isn't ideal for me. I like the overall concept, though. It would be stellar if it was painted white!

Are there better photos showing the lawn areas? I really want it to have nice landscaping. Maybe the brick driveway (walkway?) isn't all that there is.

[TexasWSP]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

Crackerbarrel, with respect, perhaps we need to define why it is that you find "southern" fraternities superior to all other fraternities and fraternity systems.

You asked what makes Georgia Tech's system strong (and your implication that it is not). Georgia Tech's system is very old with very well established chapters; they are well housed, stable, large chapters and fraternity men populate student government and all major leadership positions. Tech has 31 fraternities - all big, solid nationals - and outside of Virginia Tech or possibly U-Florida that's probably the most in the south.

Yes, fraternities at most SEC schools are very well established and strong, but the "southern" fraternity systems are no more or less dominating of their campuses than the fraternity systems at: Missouri, Texas, Texas Tech, Kansas, Kansas State, Nebraska, Indiana, Illinois, Oklahaom, Oklahoma State, Cornell, Penn State, Southern California, Arizona...
In fact, I'd say the fraternity system at U-Arizona is probably stronger all-around than any in the south except Alabama (which has no peer in my opinion), Auburn and possibly Ole Miss. Even then, it's close and arguable.
The Betas at Oklahoma have 150 members plus 50 pledges and live in a house more majestic and awe-inspiring than any - any- in the south. You'd have a hard tme saying they are not "elite".
I love the south and I'm a fan of SEC fraternities, but the SEC fraternity systems are not superior to great fraternity systems in other parts of the country.

As far as your comment that "Top Tier means elite" and that "five out of 20 are not elite"...I respectfully disagree. The top 20% of any large system will tend to be elite. The top men tend to be drawn to the top fraternities. Claiming to be "selective" is something anyone can do. Being selective is only a virtue if you get selected back by the top rushees. On a big campus with a lot of rushees and a large number of fraternities, there are enough "elite" types to populate pledge classes for all the Tier I fraternities.
And, with respect, the truely bottom Tier III is always small, becasue bad fraternities tend to go out of business. The worst ones will fail and drop out of the system.
You may be exactly right about two levels in Tier II, but most people don't make the distinction among those in the middle.

Again, this discussion of your points comes back to how YOU define a superior fraternity system. If it depends to you on how many guys wear pastel shirts, then we'll have to agree to disagree about fraternities and their relative strengths. I respect your enthuiasm for fraternities and I have no doubt you are a stalwart and generous supporter of your chapter.

Phi Gam and SAE are the two top tier houses at OU. Then comes Beta, Lambda Chi, Delt and Sig Ep. All the other houses need not be mentioned.

The Beta house at OU looks like a silly castle and looks ridiculously out of place. The inside isn't as nice as what you think either......I've been in it.

[gtdxeric]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

Claiming to be "selective" is something anyone can do. Being selective is only a virtue if you get selected back by the top rushees.

One way to measure "tiers" on a campus is through rush wins - if KA and SAE both gave nine rushees bids, how many went where?

Another way that's not quite as reliable but easier to figure is bidding average - how many men who were given bids to a house accepted them. If a house gives forty bids to get a seven man rush class, (or eighty bids to get a 15 man class) it speaks for itself.

None of this works if you have large amounts of voluntary depledging.