California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

[PeppyGPhiB]

A lot of gay people work in my industry (PR and advertising), so I've been lucky enough to know many gay people. After reading all these posts, I just don't understand how some of you could think the GLBT community is trying to make this issue political. This is a legal definition battle for them - it's the christian conservatives that are making it a political issue. I believe there are only seven states that allow civil unions. Many of you probably have no idea of the lack of rights gay people, and gay couples, have in many states - they don't qualify for their partner's insurance, they aren't entitled to death benefits or the tax benefits, and even if their partner is sick and dying in the hospital, the hospital does not have to release any information on their condition. In fact, if a gay person is in a terrible car accident that puts them in a vegetative state, the hospital would actually look to any relative, no matter how far removed, to make decisions regarding the patient's care over a partner of 20 years even.

In many states gay people are not a protected class for some of our most basic rights, including employment. Did you know that in the majority of our states, a person could be fired from their job just for being gay? No cause needed - being gay is the cause. What gay people are looking for is the same legal rights straight Americans have, and the same protections other minorities in America have.

ETA: this clip from the Ellen show yesterday made me smile =) http://youtube.com/watch?v=G-nGsN1_fM8

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

What gay people are looking for is the same legal rights....... and the same protections other minorities in America have.

This is one thing about the 'gays need rights like minorities have' that bothers me so much. Gays are not minorities, and when gays equate themselves as such, I find it to be very offensive. Whenever anyone can find evidence of when gays were brought to this country against their will, forced to live in inhumane physical, mental, cultural, and spritual bondage for over 300 years in this country. Where gay women were forced to have babies for the 'massa' just to produce more people to enslave. Where gay men were beaten down and torn from their families. Where gay people were given outdated books to use in public schools. When you can find evidence like that, then *maybe* I'll buy the gays are minorities argument. Until then, please stop calling them that. If you're gay, you're gay. But don't equate being gay with being a minority in this country.

As far as I can tell, with White gays especially, they still get better treatment than I do. Why? Because at the end of the day they are White and I'm not. And if you don't believe me ask Hillary Clinton, since it will be the less educated White people who can get her into the White House.
(Meaning one's race is more important than anything else.)

[Leslie Anne]

You were actually doing a good job contradicting your anti-gay marriage statement here:

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

It seems to me that the only real difference between a gay person and a straight person is who they decide to "sleep" with.

Case in point ---

A good friend and I were in grad school at the same time. She is gay (lesbian) and I'm straight. We're both Black females of the same age. We both have similar backgrounds in terms of family. She is Catholic, I'm protestant - basically both of us are of Christian religions. She had struggles in grad school, so did I.

The only major difference is that she went out with girls, I went out with guys. Our similarities ended at the bedroom door, if you will.

Exactly! So if that's the ONLY difference, then why are you allowed to marry but she isn't?


And then you slipped into the completely illogical:

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I think that what ever you do in your private life is your business. Some people are into S&M, threesomes and bondage - I don't see any of those people at the court house demanding equal rights.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

This is one thing about the 'gays need rights like minorities have' that bothers me so much. Gays are not minorities, and when gays equate themselves as such, I find it to be very offensive. Whenever anyone can find evidence of when gays were brought to this country against their will, forced to live in inhumane physical, mental, cultural, and spritual bondage for over 300 years in this country. Where gay women were forced to have babies for the 'massa' just to produce more people to enslave. Where gay men were beaten down and torn from their families. Where gay people were given outdated books to use in public schools. When you can find evidence like that, then *maybe* I'll buy the gays are minorities argument. Until then, please stop calling them that. If you're gay, you're gay. But don't equate being gay with being a minority in this country.

So African-Americans are the only minorities? I don't think you quite understand what the word "minority" means. At its root, it's simply about percentages not cultural history.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

Exactly! So if that's the ONLY difference, then why are you allowed to marry but she isn't?

Because as a Christian, the Bible says so. For me there is no contradiction. Being gay is about sexual behavior, not whether you can drive a car or not. Gays can still ive their lives as they want. I just don't think they should get married.

And then you slipped into the completely illogical:

I was just trying to be funny here....guess it got lost in the message.

So African-Americans are the only minorities?

No, AfAm are not the only minorities, but they are the only ones that I feel comfortable speaking about becasue I am one.

I don't think you quite understand what the word "minority" means. At its root, it's simply about percentages not cultural history.

From my life experience it is about both. I can not separate one from the other.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

You selfish gays, you.

Sorry.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I would expect them to participate in attempting to gain equality. It directly affects them.

If straight people find it "morally wrong," then they don't have to get married to someone of the same sex. Simple as that.

It's so simple, isn't it?

Originally Posted by SECdomination

Second, yes- Civil Unions sound good enough to me, so how are they not the same thing? Doesn't this go back to the idea that they just want to "fit in" so they can call their relationship a marriage?

One reason that civil unions aren't good enough is that they are not portable beyond the state they were issued. Another is that there are like 2000 or so rights that automatically come with marriage that have to be duplicated when a state creates civil unions. In a nutshell, it's a waste of time and resources.

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

I cosign whoever said it's not the homosexual community generating most of the activity around this issue, if anything, they are forced time and again to fight against all the initiatives that are first being taken against them as citizens in this society. Does it really impact your life if two women or two men want to exchange vows with each other, Nate? Does it really? Because if the ultraconservatives and evangelists would just leave the issue alone, let the decisions that have allowed gay marriage to stand and spend THEIR time worrying about the economy, global warning and gas prices, then I'm fairly sure the homosexual community would be happy to live their lives and be at peace.

Amen.

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

A lot of gay people work in my industry (PR and advertising), so I've been lucky enough to know many gay people. After reading all these posts, I just don't understand how some of you could think the GLBT community is trying to make this issue political. This is a legal definition battle for them - it's the christian conservatives that are making it a political issue. I believe there are only seven states that allow civil unions. Many of you probably have no idea of the lack of rights gay people, and gay couples, have in many states - they don't qualify for their partner's insurance, they aren't entitled to death benefits or the tax benefits, and even if their partner is sick and dying in the hospital, the hospital does not have to release any information on their condition. In fact, if a gay person is in a terrible car accident that puts them in a vegetative state, the hospital would actually look to any relative, no matter how far removed, to make decisions regarding the patient's care over a partner of 20 years even.

In many states gay people are not a protected class for some of our most basic rights, including employment. Did you know that in the majority of our states, a person could be fired from their job just for being gay? No cause needed - being gay is the cause. What gay people are looking for is the same legal rights straight Americans have, and the same protections other minorities in America have.

ETA: this clip from the Ellen show yesterday made me smile =) http://youtube.com/watch?v=G-nGsN1_fM8

Amen again.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

This is one thing about the 'gays need rights like minorities have' that bothers me so much. Gays are not minorities, and when gays equate themselves as such, I find it to be very offensive. Whenever anyone can find evidence of when gays were brought to this country against their will, forced to live in inhumane physical, mental, cultural, and spritual bondage for over 300 years in this country. Where gay women were forced to have babies for the 'massa' just to produce more people to enslave. Where gay men were beaten down and torn from their families. Where gay people were given outdated books to use in public schools. When you can find evidence like that, then *maybe* I'll buy the gays are minorities argument. Until then, please stop calling them that. If you're gay, you're gay. But don't equate being gay with being a minority in this country.

As far as I can tell, with White gays especially, they still get better treatment than I do. Why? Because at the end of the day they are White and I'm not. And if you don't believe me ask Hillary Clinton, since it will be the less educated White people who can get her into the White House.
(Meaning one's race is more important than anything else.)

The cult of victimhood still runs rampant in the black community.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Because as a Christian, the Bible says so.

And there are plenty of gay Christians.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

Sorry.

Don't be.

The cult of victimhood still runs rampant in the black community.

That is becasue the effects still run rampant.

And there are plenty of gay Christians.

As there are other types of Christians.

[DSTCHAOS]

So much good stuff in this thread. I'm like a kid in a candy store.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Because as a Christian, the Bible says so.

As a Christian, I disagree.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

No, AfAm are not the only minorities, but they are the only ones that I feel comfortable speaking about becasue I am one.

You're also a woman. Don't forget that.

I recommend reading Angela Davis, bell hooks, and Patricia Hill Collins because they offer some of the best discussions on the relationship between race and gender (and sexuality and sexual orientation, to an extent).

[Drolefille]

I'm always amused by people who insist that sexual orientation is nothing more than who one chooses to sleep with. Generally if you ask that person to choose to sleep with someone of the opposite sex they react with a rather dramatic no-way-in-hell response. I mean come on, isn't it just a choice?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I'm always amused by people who insist that sexual orientation is nothing more than who one chooses to sleep with. Generally if you ask that person to choose to sleep with someone of the opposite sex they react with a rather dramatic no-way-in-hell response. I mean come on, isn't it just a choice?

For sigmadiva's post, I think there's a reason that "sleep" was in quotations. So I didn't feel the need to expound on what sexual orientation (as distinct from, yet related to sexuality) entails.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I recommend reading Angela Davis, bell hooks, and Patricia Hill Collins because they offer some of the best discussions on the relationship between race and gender (and sexuality and sexual orientation, to an extent).

Thank you. I'll get their books.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

So African-Americans are the only minorities? I don't think you quite understand what the word "minority" means. At its root, it's simply about percentages not cultural history.

Minority isn't only about population representation.

It is also about power differentials in terms of majority and minority in power. You can be the majority in population representation but a minority in terms of power (i.e. (South) African Apartheid).

So history and power are also factors in being a minority group. Homosexual representation in the total population has yet to be uncovered. So we can only assume that they are indeed the minority based on a heterocentric culture (including power differentials), and dating, marriage, and natality data.

To partially add to an understanding of sigmadiva's comment, I do not consider homosexuals to be the same type of minority group that racial and ethnic and gender minority groups are. Sexual orientation is not a factor in many contexts whereas race, class, and gender are. Granted, race, class, and gender are often expressed through expressions of sexuality. But a homosexual white male, for instance, will benefit from white male privilege in most contexts before he is oppressed because of his sexual orientation.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Minority isn't only about population representation.

It is also about power differentials in terms of majority and minority in power. You can be the majority in population representation but a minority in terms of power (i.e. (South) African Apartheid).

So history and power are also factors in being a minority group. Homosexual representation in the total population has yet to be uncovered. So we can only assume that they are indeed the minority based on a heterocentric culture (including power differentials), and dating, marriage, and natality data.

Yes. I agree. I phrased it the way I did for brevity but I do realize that it is more than that.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

To partially add to an understanding of sigmadiva's comment, I do not consider homosexuals to be the same type of minority group that racial and ethnic and gender minority groups are. Sexual orientation is not a factor in many contexts whereas race, class, and gender are. Granted, race, class, and gender are often expressed through expressions of sexuality. But a homosexual white male, for instance, will benefit from white male privilege in most contexts before he is oppressed because of his sexual orientation.

Yes, this is what I mean.

[ASUADPi]

I'm beyond thrilled that California overturned the ban. Too bad Arizona is now attempting to put a prop on the November ballot deeming marriage as between a "man and a women" I'm actually looking forward to voting against that stupid prop.

Homosexuals deserve the same "domestic" rights as a married couple as PeppyGPhiB stated earlier.

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

A good friend and I were in grad school at the same time. She is gay (lesbian) and I'm straight. We're both Black females of the same age. We both have similar backgrounds in terms of family. She is Catholic, I'm protestant - basically both of us are of Christian religions. She had struggles in grad school, so did I.

Oh, there is one more difference when you got married, you probably did it in church, and your marriage was probably blessed by an ordained minister and God. Your friend won't get this because gays and lesbians are an abomination in the eye's of God.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

As far as I can tell, with White gays especially, they still get better treatment than I do. Why? Because at the end of the day they are White and I'm not. And if you don't believe me ask Hillary Clinton, since it will be the less educated White people who can get her into the White House.
(Meaning one's race is more important than anything else.)

So their opinion matters less because they weren't so fortunate to go to college as you and I?

And why does it have to be about race? I'm sick of people always making things out about race?