What's wrong with our youth? Is it a psychosocial disorder? Is it the parents?

[AGDee]

Also rates of crime are much higher in the South than anywhere else.


I am really curious where you're getting these kinds of statistics because the last few years, Detroit and St. Louis have been named as the areas with the most violent crime per capita.

[cheerfulgreek]

Dammit! I'm gonna be late for class. This was getting interesting.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Well, people tend to think of small town life as stable and close, the opposite of big cities. Yet change has come to many parts of the United States. I think that dense social ties have given way to more impersonal relations in rural areas and small towns. We have to understand that demographic change brought on by migration and population turnover have disrupted tight social ties between families and neighbors. I do think that a lot of the violence among youths is indeed concentrated in poor areas of our nation's inner cities. You also have to understand that during the 1970s joblessness increased in inner city communities because of the outmigration of the middle class and the movement of blue collar jobs away from U.S. cities. Economic and social stress contributed to the breakdown of families and other community supports for children and adolescents. In search of support, identity, and meaning in the face of declining opportunity, more youths became involved in gangs, and with the introduction of crack cocaine, gangs turned to this volatile end of the drug market, where violence is the only available mode of protection and social control. Also rates of crime are much higher in the South than anywhere else.

I assume that you're speaking generally when you say "you/we also have to understand." None of what is being typed in this thread is a revelation. So it seems like we're typing in circles and repeating ourselves most of the time.

It doesn't change the fact that all violence is not created or responded to equally in this society. People have an image of the "types of people" that are violent and criminal and the "types of places" that this occurs--even if their assessment is inaccurate. It is this perception that feeds the fears and opinions. Not accurate information. Just another reminder for some people who are on the "what's new with our kids...why are they so violent all of a sudden" kick.

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

You also have to look at untreated mental illness as part of the problem too.

Everything's "part of the problem." But a moderate % of adults (and a smaller % of youth) have some degree of mental illness. Most of these people are functional so they have reasoning and self-regulation capacity. They won't end up criminal or deviant on most regards. So to that end, untreated mental illness has not been found to have a huge impact unless the person is unable to function without medication or counseling services.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Personal experiences are still opinions and based on only an individual-level version of fact. With millions of people in this world, we can't listen to everyone's story and exceptions to whatever perceived rules.

That was my point. Parent the child you have according to their needs.

Yes, under and over-discipline can have a negative impact on kids. There's research on corporal punishment. This is why raising a kid is more than disciplining them when they are doing something wrong. You have to raise them when they are right and wrong.

Spank or not spank = parents' decisions that people can form opinions about but can't be legislated unless there's a clear case for child abuse.

So whether or not people choose to spank, RAISE YOUR KIDS so the CPS or corrective systems don't have to RAISE YOUR KIDS. It's hard for working parents and single parents but it isn't impossible. Even if you feel exhausted, frustrated, and helpless. Find help or reliquish your parenting rights so that another person or entity can do it.

I don't know if this is directed at me personally or if you're just making general statements.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

I don't know if this is directed at me personally or if you're just making general statements.

If you needed a reminder to raise your kids so CPS or the correction system doesn't have to raise them, it was directed at you.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

You're telling me that I am though. You have your opinions on the whole issue, and I have mine.

I don't think anyone in this thread has come out and said you're wrong. We all say it's your opinion, you're entitled to it, and we don't necessarily agree with it, but that opinion doesn't necessarily equal facts. You're the one who is hell bent on proving you're "right."

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

o.k. I did a little research on this topic. Here's what I found.

I was right. It has gotten worse. What you guys said about this not being new material was correct, but the problem has gotten worse.

So how am I wrong. I'm not saying you guys are wrong, because you've made some valid points, but I'm not wrong on the whole issue either.

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I agree a little, but you have to look at the big picture. Look at what's being sold in stores. You see tabloids and most of what you see is negative. It shows celebs doing illegal things and getting away with it, or serving little or no time in jail for their actions. The gun laws have also changed in some states which is also a problem. The respect level for parents from their kids now is much lower than it was years ago. I totally disagree with you when you said it's not any different. The graphs that I looked at showed a steady rise in crime from adults who were at one time problem children. A lot of teenagers are also doing serious crime now.

It's really not that hard to see. It really doens't take science, statistics and graphs to figure it out. My opinion was pretty much right on, and I didn't need to look at any graphs or statistics to make that determination.

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Whether you believe it or not, children have gotten much worse than they've ever been. The school shootings I mentioned earlier are proof of that. <snip>

I totally can't see how some of you can't see that kids are far worse than they've ever been. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

If you needed a reminder to raise your kids so CPS or the correction system doesn't have to raise them, it was directed at you.

Thankfully, no. Though we do have a very opinionated Great-Grandmother who likes to tell us how we should be raising our kids.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

Thankfully, no. Though we do have a very opinionated Great-Grandmother who likes to tell us how we should be raising our kids.

Great-Grandmother? Wow.

Opinions are like a-holes, though.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Great-Grandmother? Wow.

We're fortunate to have three Great-Grandmothers and Great-Grandfather still around (though one Great-Grandmother is in very poor health).

Opinions are like a-holes, though.

Yep. Everyone has them and some of them stink.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I'm not saying any of you are wrong. You're telling me that I am though. You have your opinions on the whole issue, and I have mine.

I don't think anyone has told you that you are "wrong." What we've said is that your arguments are so full of generalizations supported by (in ISUKappa's words) "'I think' statements" and (in DSTChaos's words) "'everything but the kitchen sink' explanations" that no one is finding your opinions persuasive.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I don't think anyone has told you that you are "wrong." What we've said is that your arguments are so full of generalizations supported by (in ISUKappa's words) "'I think' statements" and (in DSTChaos's words) "'everything but the kitchen sink' explanations" that no one is finding your opinions persuasive.

It's like any research that throws everything but the kitchen sink in there. It lacks focus and makes it difficult to support or refute what is being said. Such research is usually slammed by reviewers for trying to do too much and yet doing way too little.

[Tippiechick]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Well, people tend to think of small town life as stable and close, the opposite of big cities. Yet change has come to many parts of the United States. I think that dense social ties have given way to more impersonal relations in rural areas and small towns. We have to understand that demographic change brought on by migration and population turnover have disrupted tight social ties between families and neighbors. Also rates of crime are much higher in the South than anywhere else.

Show me some hard evidence... BTW, are you from a small, rural town? THINKing that something is true may or may not make it so.

Example -- I think you are a stupid bitch. I think you don't know what you are talking about. I think you are so self-righteous that I want to shove Kum-ba-yah down your throat.

I may or may not have evidence to back this up. But, saying so doesn't prove my theory...


Wait... I come from a small, rural town where increasing migration has eroded the small-town ties and is sending us all to hell in a handbasket, right? You are talking out of your ASS.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Tippiechick

Example -- I think you are a stupid bitch. I think you don't know what you are talking about. I think you are so self-righteous that I want to shove Kum-ba-yah down your throat.

Seriously, though? If you needed to, you could've clowned her without going the "stupid bitch" route. Especially when your critique of her position is inaccurate.

Originally Posted by Tippiechick

Wait... I come from a small, rural town where increasing migration has eroded the small-town ties and is sending us all to hell in a handbasket, right? You are talking out of your ASS.

Actually, she isn't talking out of her ass in that post and most of her posts. She's just making a laundry list, which brings too many factors into the equation and makes it difficult to assess the relative strength of the factors in explaining the "violence problem."

What she said about migration and the eroding of traditional ties is accurate and supported by research. It is the basis for a lot of theory and research. It doesn't mean it applies in 100% of the cases or relates to everyone's experiences, but as I said before in this thread no one cares about everyone's experiences and exceptions to the research-supported "rules."

The issue of migration and ties is the same explanation that is attached to the advancement of societies, in general, and can be used to compare rural vs urban, different levels of urbanity, regional variations, and different nations. For instance, we compare economically developed nations with urbanization like the U.S. and Japan. We find that Japan has a lower crime rate than the U.S., even with high urbanization and development. One explanation for this is Japan's strong family ties and an ability to maintain solidarity and awareness of those around you (attempt to maintain informal social control mechanisms even with increasing residential mobility) even if society is developing. If you can understand that then you can understand the rural vs. urban distinction that applies in a general sense.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

I don't think anyone in this thread has come out and said you're wrong. We all say it's your opinion, you're entitled to it, and we don't necessarily agree with it, but that opinion doesn't necessarily equal facts. You're the one who is hell bent on proving you're "right."

Of course I think I'm right. I'm right about a lot of things most of the time, but I'm not the one who's getting totally "hell bent out of shape" and taking things personal like you are.

[DSTCHAOS]

For those of you who are entertained by further reading on the issue of community ties and migration and the disruption of societal ties. These aren't the most recent but these are some of the most prolific and cited sources:

Tittle and Paternoster 1988 "Geographic Mobility and Criminal Behavior." Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency. 25, 301-343.

Clinard and Abbott. 1973. Crime in Developing Countries: A Comparative Perspective. New York.

Clifford 1976. Crime Control in Japan. Lexington: MA: D.C. Health.

Adler, Freda. 1983. Nations Not Obsessed with Crime. Littleton, CO: Rothman.