The Hazing Tradition

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Bro, I gotta agree with them on this.

You are right, chapters do get shut down in the South, sure.......but you have to take into account which chapters.

I can almost promise you that there are some chapters at quite a few different schools in Texas and the Southeast that will never be shut down, barring a complete and utter catastrophe or some kind of insanely serious circumstance. I could tell you things that I have seen and witnessed that would get a chapter in other places shut down without a second thought........but it really isn't appropriate to do that on an open message board.

Brother, I am not even going to try nor do I even wish to fight with you about this one. However please note my high-lights of yours and note following quote from another poster.
From from my POV, experience etal , if something keeps going on at some point in time and place S**t happens. And when that happens, no one is going to be around to hold hands. More likely they will be pointing with one hand while trying to hold their nose and wallet at the same time.
And nothing is as secret as a college student may think it is.

Originally Posted by PhiGam

Exactly... it used to be ATO here until last year when one of their powerful alumni's son (a hemophiliac) was forced to crawl across broken glass and got cut up really bad. Daddy saw it and was unhappy and Daddy happened to be having lunch with the University President (a Phi Delt) later that day. Whats funny is they are underground and will be back on campus either next year or the year after.

Major chapters will not be touched by their nationals down here.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Brother, I am not going even try nor do I even wish to fight with you about it one. However please note my high-lights of yours and note following quote from another poster.
From from my POV, experience etal , if something keeps going at some point in time and place S**t happens. And when that happens, no one is going to be around to hold hands.
And nothing is as secret as a college student may think it is.

No you're right, nothing is as secret as we all think.......that's what makes it even more incredible that nothing happens. Everyone knows but some of the chapters in question incur zero consequences.

The story PhiGam posted is a pretty good example of how much it takes to bring the house down, in my opinion. I mean....a hemophiliac getting cut up badly could spell death if I'm not mistaken......pretty serious.

[PhiGam]

Jon... the thing is that it is NOT secret at all. I can tell you when every fraternity at FSU's hell week is, I have seen pledges running around campus at 3am in sharps, I have seen pledges lined up doing push ups in the middle of campus. Every sorority girl has has received a lovely 2am serenade from an entire pledge class. Hazing is, for the most part, accepted here so long as nothing happens that seriously endangers the life of a pledge.
Just going to reiterate that my chapter does not haze though, we are the only one.

[PhiGam]

From the article about Pike's hazing allegations at UT:

Wednesday night, 10News approached several fraternity members, including those belonging to fraternities other than Pike, but no one wanted to comment.

However, some other students on campus had plenty to say.

"I just thought, I mean, that's pretty outrageous," said Kyle Gilson, a UT freshman. "I couldn't see getting myself in that kind of situation. I don't really understand why people do, so it was pretty shocking."

[bowsandtoes]

I really don't see how anything that a person willingly wants to do can be considered hazing.

I could construe the legal definition to say that my professors are hazing me by assigning papers.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

I could construe the legal definition to say that my professors are hazing me by assigning papers.

Only if you are supposedly in pursuit of the organization known as "students without Fs." Plus, the papers your professors assign you are course requirements and even rites of passage that are well documented, just like the formal requirements and rites of passage for your fraternity are.

It is also a good thing that consent is not a legal defense because that angle has been attempted over and over again throughout the years. So the laws have been updated accordingly.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

I really don't see how anything that a person willingly wants to do can be considered hazing.

This is my biggest problem with hazing laws.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

This is my biggest problem with hazing laws.

Hm, so Bob, says go ahead, paddle me, make me overly drink, stuff my mouth with unthinkable things, over do physical workouts then it is alright?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Hm, so Bob, says go ahead, paddle me, make me overly drink, stuff my mouth with unthinkable things, over do physical workouts then it is alright?

Absolutely as long as he wants to join the organization.

If he doesn't want to join it, no one's forcing him to.

[DSTCHAOS]

Well, another hazing thread brings us full circle.

As has been said in other threads, these hazing laws are thankfully not about personal opinion or perceptions of "common sense."

Thankfully, the defense of "she/he asked to be paddled to a pulp and to flatline on a hospital bed...she/he REALLY wanted to be in XYZ" doesn't hold up in court.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Well, another hazing thread brings us full circle.

As has been said in other threads, these hazing laws are thankfully not about personal opinion or perceptions of "common sense."

Thankfully, the defense of "she/he asked to be paddled to a pulp and to flatline on a hospital bed...she/he REALLY wanted to be in XYZ" doesn't hold up in court.

I agree. I was also thinking along the lines of:
"Well Officer, they really wanted me to kill them. Really wanted me to drive both drunk and stoned. At over 200 mph through school and hospital zones. At high Noon. On the opposite side of the road. In reverse. And I agreed with him that I should so. So I am free to go, correct?"
And could I please have all of my weapons back? I am in a bit of a rush to get to my Pledge meeting.

[bowsandtoes]

Almost every fraternity related death that I've heard of or read about was the result of abusive drinking. That said, we need have any character-building activities that involve drinking. I really don't think someone is going to 'flat line' from being pushed outside of their comfort level by activities that are comparable to their sports practice in high school.

The very idea that someone can be arrested for allowing you to do something you want to do seems down right fascist. Under the logic of the current hazing laws pledges shouldn't be allowed to compete in intramurals, seeings as the running would put them under physical stress in the name of the fraternity.

[DSTCHAOS]

The majority of the sorority and fraternity related injuries and deaths that I'm talking about have nothing to do with abusive drinking.

But the rest of this is redundant because the other threads have talked the "choice" that hazing victims perceive that they have even in binge drinking incidents. Consent makes sense in theory so a lot of people understand where you are coming from, bowsandtoes, but consent doesn't operate the same way in practice.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

And most of our alumni hate nationals. We have very few that give to the national organization and hundreds that give to the fraternity itself.

Why don't you secede?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by Little32

Why don't you secede?

I know of at least one fraternity that I named above that is planning on doing this in the not so distant future (5-10 years). Stockpiling money, readying alumni, etc. My fraternity is not in the position to do so, but could if given 15-20 years.