Wilders' controversial "Fitna" now on web

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by RACooper

It's impossible to separate the man and the movie, so the point is moot about 'attacking' one but not the other - like I stated in the post above it IS Wilders' film: he provided the funding, he wrote it, he directed it, he produced it, and he distributed it.

The film is nothing more and nothing less that 'hate' propaganda, no different from the shit produced by Hamas, Hezzbollah, the Aryan Nation, the Nazis, etc.

Whats hard about separating the two? A man is a living, breathing person and the film is a compilation of movie clips and text.
call it whatever you want, it was all real footage and those were actual quotes from the Quran.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by PhiGam

Whats hard about separating the two? A man is a living, breathing person and the film is a compilation of movie clips and text.

Because the film is a reflection of the views and ideology of the man, literally a picture of how he sees Islam... and how he wants others to see Islam. I don't see why I should abandon reason, in addition to forgetting context, when evaluating this piece of propaganda.

call it whatever you want, it was all real footage and those were actual quotes from the Quran.

Yes they were - like I said the best propaganda is the skillful manipulation of the truth to place it all in the context you want... which is exactly what Wilders does here, and I'm at a loss to try and understand why some here are so willing to buy into the carefully managed and constructed "truth" he pieces together. But then again some people are more apt to believe what they want to believe if the past decade of media and politics is any indication...

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Yes they were - like I said the best propaganda is the skillful manipulation of the truth to place it all in the context you want... which is exactly what Wilders does here, and I'm at a loss to try and understand why some here are so willing to buy into the carefully managed and constructed "truth" he pieces together. But then again some people are more apt to believe what they want to believe if the past decade of media and politics is any indication...

I have not seen the Wilders film yet, so I cannot comment on that. But I wonder if you feel it is appropriate to apply the same logic to the films of Michael Moore?

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by jwright25

I have not seen the Wilders film yet, so I cannot comment on that. But I wonder if you feel it is appropriate to apply the same logic to the films of Michael Moore?

Yes I think it's only appropriate to apply the same logic to any "documentary" - though again to me there is a difference between a film-maker playing at politics, and a politician creating films to promote his ideology...

[moe.ron]

Originally Posted by PhiGam

Whats hard about separating the two? A man is a living, breathing person and the film is a compilation of movie clips and text.
call it whatever you want, it was all real footage and those were actual quotes from the Quran.

The quotes are taken way out of context, ala Emerson and Daniel Pipe style.

He gets big publicity no matter what happen.

If nothing happen, he can claim that he is happy about maturity of the debate.

If riots and stuff happen, he can say, "see, we can't trust those Muslims."

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by moe.ron

The quotes are taken way out of context, ala Emerson and Daniel Pipe style.

He gets big publicity no matter what happen.

If nothing happen, he can claim that he is happy about maturity of the debate.

If riots and stuff happen, he can say, "see, we can't trust those Muslims."

Are they really taken out of context??!?!
Is so, he is just repeating what the masses are being told by the current "leaders" in their studies and religious centers.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Are they really taken out of context??!?!Is so, he is just repeating what the masses are being told by the current "leaders" in their studies and religious centers.

Of course they are taking the quotes out of context, and frankly it disturbs me that you even have to ask that...

After all couldn't an equally disturbing film be made about any faith really if scriptural quotes are "cherry picked" and matched to loosely analogous imagery? China likes to do just that when it comes to Christianity or Buddhism, and we'd all be outraged (or I hope we would be) at the portrayal of Christianity as a violent death cult obsessed with the end of the world, or Buddhism as a dangerous and murderous faith bent on destroying society.

But since it's Islam it seems that many of those already biased or "Islamaphobic" happily lap up the spoon-fed bullshit with out ever question either the motivation behind it, or the context of the content...

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Of course they are taking the quotes out of context, and frankly it disturbs me that you even have to ask that...

After all couldn't an equally disturbing film be made about any faith really if scriptural quotes are "cherry picked" and matched to loosely analogous imagery? China likes to do just that when it comes to Christianity or Buddhism, and we'd all be outraged (or I hope we would be) at the portrayal of Christianity as a violent death cult obsessed with the end of the world, or Buddhism as a dangerous and murderous faith bent on destroying society.

But since it's Islam it seems that many of those already biased or "Islamaphobic" happily lap up the spoon-fed bullshit with out ever question either the motivation behind it, or the context of the content...

You may have missed a prior posting or two of mine.
If there is a problem with the way this film "cherry picked" scriptural quotes, is it not a problem as well if those same quotes and more/worse ones are cherry picked by those who are the leaders/teachers/consulars et al???
And that those same leaders, who no doudt had at least something to do with the threats against film, see nothing wrong with what they do all in the name of Islam and M-d?

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by jon1856

If there is a problem with the way this film "cherry picked" scriptural quotes, is it not a problem as well if those same quotes and more/worse ones are cherry picked by those who are the leaders/teachers/consulars et al???

With those people and their use of scripture to further their own political and ideological ends yes... not with the scripture.

Hell I can think of another leader that talked about scripture, speaking to God, a crusade etc. before going to war...

And that those same leaders, who no doudt had at least something to do with the threats against film, see nothing wrong with what they do all in the name of Islam and M-d?

No more so than any extremist - they operate by their own twisted logic to make the ideology fit their perception of reality... it's pretty much the hallmark of ideological extremism isn't it? Yet this seems to be something that Wilders conveniently neglects in his quest to ban Muslim immigrants and ban the Qu'ran - he is allowing his hate and bigotry to cloud his mind just as much as the extremists he depicts as the norm...

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by RACooper

With those people and their use of scripture to further their own political and ideological ends yes... not with the scripture.

Hell I can think of another leader that talked about scripture, speaking to God, a crusade etc. before going to war...



No more so than any extremist - they operate by their own twisted logic to make the ideology fit their perception of reality... it's pretty much the hallmark of ideological extremism isn't it? Yet this seems to be something that Wilders conveniently neglects in his quest to ban Muslim immigrants and ban the Qu'ran - he is allowing his hate and bigotry to cloud his mind just as much as the extremists he depicts as the norm...

As I posted well up by now, I agree with you that the scripture is not wrong; just how it is being used, edited and preached.
Now I really wish that show was being repeated.