Hazing Oversensitivity

[33girl]

Originally posted by James
I don't mind hipocracy or blatant use of power and position, I just hate to have it sugar coated. If you are going to shaft us, tell us, don't try to stroke us first to make us happy with the idea or themselves to be less the bad guy.

OK James, this post includes the words "sugar coated", "shaft" and "stroke"...subliminal much?

Lil G - I've seen kick ass brotherhoods from chapters that haze AND chapters that don't haze. I am not sure it is so much what happens as it is meeting of the minds...i.e. if a chapter has no pledging at all, and half the guys hate it & half think it's the greatest thing since beer, the brotherhood will suck. But if all the guys hate it or all the guys love it, the brotherhood will probably be very strong. (This is obviously waaay oversimplified)

[Optimist Prime]

Actully, if all the guys hate, it will be divided into pledge classes. They won't like the guys who put them through hell and will think the guys who came afterwords didn't earn the brotherhood the same way.

[LexiKD]

I just want to know, from peolpe who agree with hazing, what does hazing(good or bad) really produce? I don't want to hear bonds...brotherhood....sisterhood...etc.

I mean really, if your enitre membership is aware that hazing is not allowed, it is illegal and it could be the end of your chapter, what does that "teach" a new member?

To me it's the same with the NPC resolution, we educate our entire chapter on regulations and then pick what is truly important? That doesn't work for me.

Either we all decide the system is more important than a pledge hunt, on the spot quizzing or any form of hazing or we don't have a good system.

In the end it will be the strong chapters that survive, the good membership that wasn't based on the belittling of our members.

[33girl]

Lexi:

I think you are missing the point of this thread.

Many people - old, young, whatever - do not consider a lot of the activities deemed "illegal" by NPC as hazing. That's why the thread is called "hazing oversensitivity." I don't think you'll find anyone (including myself) who thinks beatings, forced drinking or mental torture are defensible. Those are definitely hazing, by any definition. And there is no such thing as "good" hazing. But I personally am very offended to hear the interviews, interaction with other Greeks, and pledge class activities - things that definitely "fill[ed] my days with satisfying activity", in the words of ASA's Creed - referred to as hazing. That is pledging. I never felt disgraced, demeaned or stressed at any time in my pledge program, and I resent someone telling me that I should have.

My question is, do YOU think these activities are hazing? Not what does KD nationals think, what does NPC think, what do you, Lexi, think? If you had joined KD 10 years ago and interviews and a scavenger hunt were part of your program, approved by nationals, would you have felt hazed?

I am not saying everything was roses and daisies back in the day - far from it. We DID have a few chapters on our campus who hazed like hell and the smart people stayed away from them. But when I apply those famous four questions on "is it hazing?" (would you do it in front of your mom, does it have a purpose, etc etc) to my pledge program, sorry to disappoint everyone, but it wasn't. The chapters who do haze should have been prosecuted in the first place so the rest of us don't have to suffer. It's like drunk driving or gun control laws - it doesn't help to pass stricter ones when the ones we have aren't enforced to begin with. It just gets the people who were following the laws caught in the undertow because the laws have changed.

[LexiKD]

33: I didn't miss the point, I think all regulations that NPC has set out in black and white are hazing activities.

I do understand that some things can be fun and rewarding but, remember, the group of NPC delegates have seen the good and the bad of these.

One group may think it's OK to have a kidnapping and take new members in a car, scare them and really just take them to breakfast, but not all members think alike and there are so many activites that can turn out badly. Just like hunts, interviews...etc. It may seem great, but in reality it can and has been known to get out of control.

Year after year we bring new members in our circles and yes we educate them and yes we wish them the best, but the only way to insure that we have lowered the risk of harm to our membership is to not allow some activites. As goes for drinking policy changes, membership selections....and so on, things change, move with it, or be left behind.

No matter intent, hazing is spelled out. We have to change with the times. The groups that understand that will be better off.

All I am saying is, we all have handouts and chapter talks regarding this subject, yet it still goes on. My questions is, why educate and not practice? What does that teach?

To me, hazing is crazy, there is no need to risk it, no matter how great it helps out your new member classes. And I'm not talking about the beating and outrageous stuff, I mean the innocent activites that are still considered hazing.

I do not think anyone is over sensitive regarding the subject of hazing. I am however sad that so much has been banned b/c of a few bad apples. Some things can be fun, but you know what, we have to live w/o it and find more creative/legal things to do. If I would have joined 10 years ago, I hope I would feel the same. Since my recent graduation things have changed, I have to go with the flow. I'm an alumnae association pres and find myself explaining the new hazing every meeting. I understand it is new and will take time to get used to.

I was not hazed. I am not less devoted to KD. I am not kidding.

[33girl]

Originally posted by LexiKD
33: I didn't miss the point, I think all regulations that NPC has set out in black and white are hazing activities.

That's all I wanted to know - YOUR opinion. I won't be wasting my valuable time trying to convince you of otherwise if that is your position. Thank you.

[Kevin]

I hope this doesn't offend anyone =)
though I'm relatively certain it will...

Greek organizations typically are created to build character, values and leadership skills.

So tell me this: How can you serve any of the above three items by hazing? It would seem that by hazing someone you are admiting that you have neither of the above 3 things.

I was never hazed. Am a founding member of my chapter and I joined because my fraternity does not condone it at all. At my chapter with our group of founding fathers looking on, it never will.

I wasn't hazed and I still feel a VERY powerful bond of brotherhood with a diverse group of guys. How was this accomplished? Because whatever our differences, we all have something in common. Our letters and a firm belief in the founding principles of our fraternity.

Hazing is the mark of immaturity. We are in college to become adults and learn to live in the real world. Where fun IS a necessary component (and a damned fine one!), it should be fun for EVERYONE. If you ever have to ask your brother/sister to do something that you wouldn't do yourself then how can you call yourself their brother/sister?

Perhaps you think it's benefited you personally to be put through hazing.. even stuff that's just "fun". But ask yourself if it could have gotten out of hand? If my chapter could do the same thing for 20 years and no one take it too far just once? If they did, just one time.. the consequences could spell dormancy for your chapter. Food for thought...

LHT,
Kevin

[N2]

Well, young Kevin,

My Chapter has and does just that.

Character, Values, Leadership. We do not serve these ideals, we test them. The first two are innate, the later is a learned trait. Our pledge period is designed to allow anyone with character or value flaws to trip, and when they do they are gone. It is run by a very strict script that is not deviated from.

I do not doubt that you feel a bond to your brothers. Just the fact that you wear the same jersey will do that to some degree. Look at any sports team. But you and those like you that condemn the hazing Fraternities by assuming that the Brotherhood in your Chapter is just as good or better have no idea what you are speaking of.

Can you be embarrassed in your house? Is there anything that is so personal that you would not/could not/have not done in front of your Brothers? In mine, by the time you are a Brother, there is not.

"Hazing is the mark of immaturity."

Well, Ignorance is bliss!

"We are in college to become adults and learn to live in the real world."

I got news for you Kevin, the REAL world is not to be viewed through rose colored glasses. Its not on MTV either. Our pledges enter our intake system as 18 year old kids. Ones that we carefully choose. The ones that make it, enter Brotherhood as a 19 year old kid who knows that he never again has to watch his back. They graduate as young men who have Brothers everywhere that will give them the shirt off their back if need be. Since 1987, no Brother of my Fraternity Chapter has withdrawn from College for financial reasons. We, the Alumni, will not let it happen. We now have 7 Brothers in repayment and 3 on tuition subsidy. None of our Brothers have asked a pledge to do something that he hasn't done himself.

"Perhaps you think it's benefited you personally to be put through hazing.. "

No, there's no 'perhaps' to it. I am a MUCH better man because of it. We have many thanks from the parents of our Brothers. Many of them are amazed at what came home for the summer. I have a 'ransom' letter from a few years ago. A father offering to pay us to keep his old son if he can keep the new one that came home for summer break. My chapter also gets unsolicited donations from the parents of our active Brothers. It started about 10 years ago and now has taken on a life of its own. Every Spring we now have a family weekend and we are up to about half of the Brothers' familys participating. As long as things like this continue to happen I know we are still doing it right, regardless of the letter of the law.

My Chapter has done the exact same pledge period for over 30 years. In fact it's almost 40 now. As for taking it too far, we never allow alcohol to be present when any hazing event takes place and its always been that way. My Chapters forefathers had great vision.

Consequences? Well, the consequence of not running our pledge period the way we always have would be the extinction of the Chapter anyway.

[Optimist Prime]

N2..could you please explain what you mean by hazing??

[kristiAZD]

Lexi, you talk about on the spot quizzing of information. The amusing thing I see about that is, are you calling the education system in this country hazing? We are quizzed every day. If we were not quizzed or tested, would we never feel the need to learn anything. I know if I didn't have tests in my classes I would never go to class, and certainly not study or make an effort. It is the same way in the pledging process. People do not feel motivated to learn things if they know they don't really have to. I went through this when I was pledging. My pledge educator told us all the time to learn our Symphony, but did I listen? No. I didn't ever think I would really need to know it. I got a wake up call when we were handed a piece of paper one day and told to write it down. I couldn't get past "The Symphony of Alpha Xi Delta." It was really sad. That day forced me to change my outlook on things and see that these things were important and that I NEEDED to know them. Since I went through, things like this have been lessened and now I feel the last few classes don't know anything about our history and what we're about. They aren't as knowledgable about our insignia, etc. I know EVERYTHING and that is a fact I am proud of. If I hadn't been quizzed on our important information, I would not be able to tell you a damn thing about my organization today.

[Kevin]

Again the disclaimer: I hope this doesn't truly offend someone, but it probably will...

Just because you've done something for 30 or fourty years doesn't mean it's still the best thing to do. Old traditions like that can hold you back.

Having been the colony marshal for a year I was charged with our new member education. I guarantee you there are things, FUN things that you can do without hazing. Ever tried a ropes course? (well that's not the best we can do, but it's the easiest thing to tell you about in one sentance =) )

I would agree that values and character are innate to a degree, but I would also challenge you in that statement by saying that our values and our character are in a constant state of readjustment. Especially around the ages when young men enter University.

You haven't got a clue as to the brotherhood that exists in our chapter. You can mock it all you want and say that no one understands your "bond", but aren't you just assuming things? THings you know only half the truth about? Do you know what it's like to be a founding father of your chapter? The guys that I've done this with are close, very close. Believe me, I understand brotherhood.

But I digress. My father belongs to a fraternity in which he was active in the late 1960's. I am well aware of what they did, the fact that they had a pledge trainer who was exceedingly cruel (who ended up not coming back after some pledges had their revenge on them) and basically everything involving their pledge program. He recalls his fraternity days as something of a waste. The stories are interesting, but the deeds I hear about are not the deeds that would be committed by men of character. I am not saying that pledging any fraternity should be easy.

I'm not saying that we hand them their pledge pin, give them a manual, a hug and a couple of ceremonies and then say welcome! I'm simply saying that you have to know where to draw the line.

Some fraternities and sororities take the definition of hazing a bit too far in my opinion (and I think most folks would agree). We send our new guys to help sororities clean their houses, move large things, etc... as kind of a relations thing. Some of their national offices call that hazing?!

Many people's national governing bodies have taken the initiative by defining our pledge programs for us to replace the old ones -- we have the LEAD (Leadership, Ethics, Achievment and Development). The program is great and has turned many of our old and hurting chapters into the top chapters on their respective campuses. It encompasses all four years of your college career, so that there is always something to do. It encourages positive relationships with alums and essentially is aimed at developing the whole man and preparing him for the professional world.

If you're willing to listen you'll hear plenty of success stories from these chapters that have subscribed to the newer pledge education systems. Your fraternity is different from mine and I can respect that. I know however that mine was actually founded against the practices of hazing and for me to call myself a Sigma Nu and to support hazing would be a bit hypocritical.

How paddling, lineups, late work sessions and the like make you any more of a 'man' sounds like a fairly pathetic excuse to continue antiquated traditions that have long outlived their welcome in the Greek community as a whole. Anyone that has not moved past these old traditions at this point must either make the decision to change or to fade away.


LHT,
Kevin Taylor
MT #5 (as of 3-9-02)

[LexiKD]

AZD: A national new member test and on the spot quizzzing are 2 different things.

If you are implying that a HS pop quiz and on the spot line up quizzes are the same you are mistaken.

As for peolpe not learning information unless tested, I didn't learn my organization's history and facts just b/c I was being tested!

[kmp1552]

As far as I am concerned hazing is a topic that will never die. I see both sides of this and coming from a sorority that used to be one of the worse hazing sororities on my campus and then going to a strictly NON-HAZING sorority some things we do are still considered hazing like pledge education meetings. Also I have seen a trend in new members not caring to get to know actives and acting like its their right to automatically get initiated into the sorority. In some ways I feel that minor hazing teachs them respect. I dont agree with the stuff that includes pledges not sleeping, or drinknig until they are sick but it happens and we all need ot realize that.

As an alum on the same campus I attended I see it all the time!! And in some cases I have seen it get worse over the years instead of better. Right now the thigns i see happening are ridiculuous but how are you going to stop it all. I think the guidelines should be made mroe clear cut so then maybe there would be a better chance of enforcing them, also nationals need to get involved more!!!

[Kevin]

Also I have seen a trend in new members not caring to get to know actives and acting like its their right to automatically get initiated into the sorority

This is the problem that many houses have to learn to deal with. Treating someone differently because they are a new member is fine IMHO. They are probationary, to demand respect is to demand that they respect the letters they are wearing. I see nothing wrong with that. To demand that they know at the very least their own history, I see nothing wrong with that...

In most organizations you still have to earn your way in. In mine, for a candidate to become an initiate requires a unanimous vote of the active membership. Around a quarter of them typically get cut, sometimes more, sometimes less -- that is anyone that we see not giving 110% to the fraternity and their academics.

Something that we've found to be very helpful is placing our new guys in charge of events. The new members are responsible for coordinating our homecoming efforts, greek week efforts and they put on a major social event every semester. They don't do it FOR us but they lead the entire house in it.

And of course that unanimous vote at the end can be a great motivator in getting them to go and meet the actives =)

LHT,
Kevin

[Optimist Prime]

The only problem I see with the unamious (spelling?) vote is that if one guy is never there to meet the pledges when they call him, or just hates the chapter for whatever reason, and wants to be a dick, he can say NO to everyone, then no more iniates and after just one or two semesters your memmbership levels are crap.