Institutions with national sororities

[ladygreek]

It is funny to me that when someone says they are offended about a post and says why, others jump on the person about being offended instead of just saying "so noted." It sounds like me doth think ye protest too much and feel guilty about the offense.

Just like when we protested about the lack of inclusion of NPHC groups in these "statistics", we were told by some posters every reason why not. But now oldu has become a little more sensitive about it has sought to remedy the offense.

If Clio is offended that is her perception and she has the right to express it. And btw, I, too, get a general impression for GC that locals are considered "less than."

[alum]

CMU has had NPCs since the mid 40s. The male fraternities have been around longer than that. Panhel GLOs used to have sections in one of the nicer dorms and in the late 70s, the university built townhouses for the 5 women's groups. The men got duplexes across campus. Neither are gorgeous but they are functional.

More importantly, it put the respective groups on an even playing field since all the Panhel GLOs had 16 beds, the same square footage, etc. It was up to each House Board to decorate the homes.

The University of Richmond does not have Greek Housing yet Greek Life there is fairly strong. The male fraternities have lodges on the outskirts of the campus. The Panhel groups meet in various locations on campus. Although the students don't have parietal hours, all UR housing is single-sex.

[Cutie_Hootie]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I wonder - does housing play any part in deciding whether or not a Greek system continues or closes? Is a system without housing, or only with university housing, more likely to close?

I know the issue of housing is an important component of the Greek experience on some campuses - even figuring into quota on some campuses. It was an issue in the late unpleasantness at DePauw. Thoughts, anyone?

I believe it plays a major role. On my tiny campus, Greek life has declined from approximately 75% Greek during my era (mid-90s) to about 50% now. In talking to the collegians and college officials, one major reason is housing. Our houses are college owned. They were built in about 1950, and have few amenities common to today's college student. When I was there, every house was filled to capacity, and every sorority was at total.

Today (on a campus where 100% of students live on campus) with new apartment style housing being constructed, with the dorms being remodeled to include air conditioning, and with what the university calls "tiered housing", we struggle to fill our house at times. Only two of the sororities are at total (which has declined from 90 to 68 in the past three years). The students want to live in the nice dorms, and the college encourages it. The anti-Greek feelings are strong these days, and the college would love nothing more than to close our chapters, and take our houses (which they would then turn into themed housing and charge out the wazoo).

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

It is funny to me that when someone says they are offended about a post and says why, others jump on the person about being offended instead of just saying "so noted." It sounds like me doth think ye protest too much and feel guilty about the offense.

Nope - you can be offended by whatever you like. But if you want to say you are offended by something I posted, it needs to be about my post. Not what you read elsewhere on GC, not on a general feeling you have, not on what others have said IRL. That would be the "chip". Hire a therapist if your issues run that deep.


If Clio is offended that is her perception and she has the right to express it. Yes she does - and if we feel she is hijacking a thread by continuing to whine, we have the right to express that, too.

My overall perception of locals has heretofore been based on the locals on the campuses I attended and worked at. To tell you the truth, none of them have been that impressive. But I know my experience is hardly a representative sample.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by Cutie_Hootie

I believe it plays a major role. On my tiny campus, Greek life has declined from approximately 75% Greek during my era (mid-90s) to about 50% now. In talking to the collegians and college officials, one major reason is housing. Our houses are college owned. They were built in about 1950, and have few amenities common to today's college student. When I was there, every house was filled to capacity, and every sorority was at total.

Today (on a campus where 100% of students live on campus) with new apartment style housing being constructed, with the dorms being remodeled to include air conditioning, and with what the university calls "tiered housing", we struggle to fill our house at times. Only two of the sororities are at total (which has declined from 90 to 68 in the past three years). The students want to live in the nice dorms, and the college encourages it. The anti-Greek feelings are strong these days, and the college would love nothing more than to close our chapters, and take our houses (which they would then turn into themed housing and charge out the wazoo).

YIKES - any chance of getting new housing? I would think being stuck in 1950s housing is hurting the Greeks.

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

My overall perception of locals has heretofore been based on the locals on the campuses I attended and worked at. To tell you the truth, none of them have been that impressive. But I know my experience is hardly a representative sample.

Sounds like I stumbled upon the truth.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

Sounds like I stumbled upon the truth.

Hey, that's my experience. But I've always assumed that because my experience is so limited that it is hardly representative. Therefore, I've tried to keep an open mind, and not tar all locals with the same brush. So slam me for not basing my judgement only on my real life experience.

And I've looked in vain for anyone denying anyone the right to his/her opinion.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Locals are not in the league of any NPC in terms of active members, alumnae, resources, programming, housing, networking, etc. That's a simple fact. NPC members are rightly proud of what their groups have achieved.

No opinion here. Just fact. NPC chapters have anywhere from 40-170 active chapters (most over 100) and anywhere from 15,000 to 240,000 members (most over 100,000---granted some are deceased alumnae). With numbers like that, there's no way a local can compare with the resources that an NPC offers.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

That doesn't mean that a local group cannot have a strong sisterhood, traditions, or campus presence.

These are things that locals AND NPCs can offer. Otterbein also comes to mind when I think of a campus with a strong local tradition.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

It doesn't mean a local is just a "clique" - but some are indeed more like clubs than sororities. As oldu pointed out, some of them are run radically differently than NPC sororities.

There is this one local (I think at a CUNY school) that has Ariel, the Little Mermaid as its mascot. I think this is a good example of why some people see locals as "not real" and unfairly lump them all together as "not real".

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

There's really no need to be so defensive. It makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder.

I'd agree with this.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Many locals, after all, eventually become NPC sororities, which would not be the case if the women weren't of the same "caliber" as their brethren in the NPC. Heck, we all started out as "locals".

Exactly. SWTXBelle is saying that the women in locals are usually of the same caliber as women in NPC sororities. This is one reason why, often, an NPC is happy to asborb a local.

ETA: Clio, some people are skeptical about locals for several reasons:
1. Because there is no HQ to answer to, a local can get away with much more (hazing, parties, underage drinking, other risk management issues) than a(n) (inter)national. That doesn't mean that all locals are risk management nightmares, however.
2. Some locals, particularly the more recently founded ones, have mascots like Ariel, Calvin and Hobbes, Babs bunny, etc. or their letters are Eta Omega Tau and they advertise themselves as "HOT" girls or they have mottoes like "No ugly people allowed" or their colors are "hot pink and black" (all real examples from GC). The mascot, letters, or motto makes one question what their sisterhood is really about. After my initiation, I was really moved by the real meaning of our symbols, letters, etc. and how they fit together and really show purpose instead of being arbitrarily chosen because hot pink and black are my favorite colors. (NOTE: I highly doubt this applies to your local since it was founded in 1872)
3. Similar to #2, some locals are perceived as having less staying power because some don't have a solid purpose, (some are copycats of NPCs, some were founded by a transfer, some were founded by an angry girl who got cross-cut, etc.) or merely because they are young and have not stood the test of time. Again, this probably does not apply to your local.
4. The resources. Locals can not compare to the resources that NPCs offer merely because of numbers. Some people think that more resources=better. I love thinking that I can move almost anywhere in the country (or even in Europe) and know that there will be Sigma Kappas nearby.

Know that what I said aren't necessarily things I believe, but reasons why some people think locals are inferior.

When I think of my high school drama bunch, officially called the Midnight Players, we are kind of like a local, co-ed fraternity. We are all very close, and alumni are super loyal and come back for shows and support each other in post high school dramatic endeavors. Do we have the money, manpower, scholarships, networking, etc. that would compare with a national counterpart? No. Does that diminish what I treasure from being a Midnight Player? Of course not.

[SWTXBelle]

I attended my school just as Greek housing became a part of Greek life. For the longest time the University said no to sorority houses. Delta Zeta basically just said, "Tough Darts, Farmer" and bought a beautiful Victorian. I think they were punished for a semester or two, but at the end of the day, they had a house, and the rest of the sororities had to play catch up. Delta Zeta still has a gorgeous house - they've added to it over the years. Chi Omega has a lodge, but to tell you the truth they are strong enough that it really doesn't matter that they can't house any girls. Alpha Xi Delta had a real renaissance because they were the first to build a house - it really helped them forge an identity. I'm not as familiar with the Zeta, Delta Gamma and ADPi houses - there is one Victorian that was DG, but is now ADII, Delta Gamma has a house which I've never seen, and Zeta has a nice house near A Xi D. I know AOPi was on campus and at one point had two houses, but for whatever reason they did not last very long. For the last 20 years there has been talk of a Greek Park, but so far it has come to nothing. Many of the older fraternity houses and a few of the sorority houses are in neighborhoods that the University may well need to expand. Our old house is right next to parking lots that used to be the TKE and Kappa Sig houses. Because the Kappa Alpha house is in-between the university and our old house, so far it hasn't been paved over. But I'd be surprised if the KA and old Gamma Phi houses weren't eventually sold to TX State. I would LOVE to see a Greek Park/Village kind of thing, and it may happen someday. The next sorority to come on would, I think, need to be committed to providing housing.

As to how big a part housing plays at TX State - well, the NPCs have been around only since the 60s,(sororities were local before that), and housing has only been a concern since the late 70s. It's tough to say what impact actually buildling a Greek Park/Village would have. Housing is a problem, so it might be that providing housing could positively impact the popularity of Greeks.

[icelandelf]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I attended my school just as Greek housing became a part of Greek life. For the longest time the University said no to sorority houses. Delta Zeta basically just said, "Tough Darts, Farmer" and bought a beautiful Victorian. I think they were punished for a semester or two, but at the end of the day, they had a house, and the rest of the sororities had to play catch up. Delta Zeta still has a gorgeous house - they've added to it over the years. Chi Omega has a lodge, but to tell you the truth they are strong enough that it really doesn't matter that they can't house any girls. Alpha Xi Delta had a real renaissance because they were the first to build a house - it really helped them forge an identity. I'm not as familiar with the Zeta, Delta Gamma and ADPi houses - there is one Victorian that was DG, but is now ADII, Delta Gamma has a house which I've never seen, and Zeta has a nice house near A Xi D. I know AOPi was on campus and at one point had two houses, but for whatever reason they did not last very long. For the last 20 years there has been talk of a Greek Park, but so far it has come to nothing. Many of the older fraternity houses and a few of the sorority houses are in neighborhoods that the University may well need to expand. Our old house is right next to parking lots that used to be the TKE and Kappa Sig houses. Because the Kappa Alpha house is in-between the university and our old house, so far it hasn't been paved over. But I'd be surprised if the KA and old Gamma Phi houses weren't eventually sold to TX State. I would LOVE to see a Greek Park/Village kind of thing, and it may happen someday. The next sorority to come on would, I think, need to be committed to providing housing.

I miss our house! It was so cozy! My brother was a KA at SWTSU so I remember their house as well. They've been rennovating it (new carpet, wood floors on the first floor, new cabinetry) so I would be said to see it go.

[SWTXBelle]

I've been surprised that KA has continued to put money into that house - cause it sure looks like a sitting duck, surrounded by the campus and all. I would think, given their strong alumni base, they could rebuild if they wanted to.

Hey - I'm going to be on campus next Friday! I'll have to look at it . . .


Does anyone here come from a campus WITHOUT housing?

And oldu - of those campuses which lost systems during the depression, in your opinion was the burden of housing costs a problem?

[oldu]

While many individual chapters lost their houses and were forced to close for financial reasons during the depression, no entire system closed because of it. In fact, I suspect the opposite is true. I'll double check my records (I'm in NYC & don't have the materials in the apartment) when I get home but my off-hand observation is that most of the Greek systems that closed were at non-housed campuses where it seems to me it is more difficult to retain a cohesive operation where there is no piece of real estate. My personal opinion is that owning your own house is a gigantic plus along as the group did not over reach and obtain something impossible to retain. Correct me, but I can not think of any really strong Greek system in which there is no housing (including lodges or meeting rooms) involved.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Does anyone here come from a campus WITHOUT housing?

Yep! Pepperdine has no greek housing, and probably never will.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by oldu

Correct me, but I can not think of any really strong Greek system in which there is no housing (including lodges or meeting rooms) involved.

Um, I don't think Auburn has sorority houses, and it's one of the most competitive sorority systems in the country. But maybe they have a sorority dorm?

I was surprised to learn that Indiana State does not have sorority housing, either.

[ComradesTrue]

Originally Posted by oldu

Correct me, but I can not think of any really strong Greek system in which there is no housing (including lodges or meeting rooms) involved.

I will defer to DukeDG, but my understanding is that the sororities at Duke have nothing but a basement where everyone has to store their initiation stuff together (separate holding tanks, locked).

The men, of course, have houses. So, the entire system is not without housing, so maybe this would not apply.