No Independence For Kosovo!!!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I'd find it interesting to compare out attitudes about the Lakota independence issue with our attitudes about Kosovo's independence or Chechnyan independence. I don't hold a uniform view, but it's hard for me to express what I think makes each situation different.

The biggest difference is that the U.N. is stepping in to rectify wrongs which are currently occurring. Whatever happened to the Lakota happened a long time ago. If in 2008, we embarked on a genocidal campaign against the Lakota, the U.N. might have something to say.

Of course, the reality is that the U.S. has enough guns, bombs, etc. to keep anyone from being able to do anything about something like that, so nothing happened. Perhaps that's the biggest difference between those two situations? Serbia is small enough that the international community can impose its will, the U.S. determines the national community's will.

Also, the Balkans have been known to be the starting point for serious international conflict. The western U.S.? Not so much.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Also, the Balkans have been known to be the starting point for serious international conflict. The western U.S.? Not so much.

Ahhh, the Gavrillo Princip principle of international relations...

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The biggest difference is that the U.N. is stepping in to rectify wrongs which are currently occurring. Whatever happened to the Lakota happened a long time ago. If in 2008, we embarked on a genocidal campaign against the Lakota, the U.N. might have something to say.

Of course, the reality is that the U.S. has enough guns, bombs, etc. to keep anyone from being able to do anything about something like that, so nothing happened. Perhaps that's the biggest difference between those two situations? Serbia is small enough that the international community can impose its will, the U.S. determines the national community's will.

Also, the Balkans have been known to be the starting point for serious international conflict. The western U.S.? Not so much.

I hear you about differences in the current situation, but I doubt that's how the Lakota tell it.

Your point about the Balkans as a starting point in international conflict is an interesting one, but it makes creating essentially an independent majority Islamic state all the more interesting, which is not to say that I'm opposed to it.

What about Chechnya? Should they just suck it up and accept they're part of Russian forever since there's been no attempt at ethnic cleansing*? Things seem to have settled down and they may have simply accepted things.


*ETA: or maybe more accurately, what is the difference since their have been attempts at ethnic cleansing?

[moe.ron]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

What about Chechnya? Should they just suck it up and accept they're part of Russian forever since there's been no attempt at ethnic cleansing? Things seem to have settled down and they may have simply accepted things.

There are accusations of ethnic cleansing going on in Chechnya.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by moe.ron

There are accusations of ethnic cleansing going on in Chechnya.

I believe you, but can you give me a link?

As I do my superficial, wikipedia level, online research, it's hard to tell what's up right now. I can see that there was "displacement" or Muslims during the first Chechnyan War, but I can't really tell what's up or how things were resolved.

What do you think, Moe.ron, about the independence in each of these cases?

[moe.ron]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I believe you, but can you give me a link?

As I do my superficial, wikipedia level, online research, it's hard to tell what's up right now. I can see that there was "displacement" or Muslims during the first Chechnyan War, but I can't really tell what's up or how things were resolved.

What do you think, Moe.ron, about the independence in each of these cases?

For a starter, Stalin forced Chechen to relocate in 1944. Up to 30% of Chechen died during the transportation, resettlement and the first year of exile.

Then there is the 1999 operation which resulted over 30,000 civilians death and Chechnya in ruins.

From what I can gather, not much going on. Either in redeveloping Chechnya or open conflict. However, Amnesty has reported many male "disappearing" and there are various individuals who have disappear.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by moe.ron

For a starter, Stalin forced Chechen to relocate in 1944. Up to 30% of Chechen died during the transportation, resettlement and the first year of exile.

Then there is the 1999 operation which resulted over 30,000 civilians death and Chechnya in ruins.

From what I can gather, not much going on. Either in redeveloping Chechnya or open conflict. However, Amnesty has reported many male "disappearing" and there are various individuals who have disappear.

I did see the history under the Stalin. It seems pretty remarkable after what Stalin did that there was still a sense of separate cultural identity in the region when the Soviet Union broke up. It seems like it would have been destroyed with the number of forced relocations and deaths.

At the risk of seeming especially heartless, I think it's always going to be really hard to tell exactly what's going on in a region if you have separatist groups using somewhat terrorist tactics and Pro-Russian secret police kind of groups in the same areas using terrorist tactics. Unless of course, you have the benefit of "peace keepers" standing by as witness.

Remember the guy who was accusing Putin of having done the Russian apartment bombings (I don't mean personally) in 1999 to justify the 2nd Chechnyan war? (I know I should remember his name, but I don't, he was poisoned with radioactive materials?) Did anyone ever establish his accusations more fully?

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by moe.ron

For a starter, Stalin forced Chechen to relocate in 1944. Up to 30% of Chechen died during the transportation, resettlement and the first year of exile.

Then there is the 1999 operation which resulted over 30,000 civilians death and Chechnya in ruins.

From what I can gather, not much going on. Either in redeveloping Chechnya or open conflict. However, Amnesty has reported many male "disappearing" and there are various individuals who have disappear.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/04/wo...4chechnya.html

[moe.ron]

Good to hear. Still, wonder what happen to the thousand of people that have disappeared. Will true democracy emerge (unlikely in the near future. Just look what's going on with oppositions in Russia itself)?