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  #46  
Old 02-14-2008, 06:31 PM
UGAalum94 UGAalum94 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSig RC View Post
I have no idea what you're getting at here - as far as I know, everything in the Mormonism episode is completely and 100% factually presented, although with an obvious bias that serves to wonderfully prove their later point by inverting it. It's a literary technique - the episode was meant as a touchstone, not an exhortation to learn shit from South Park.

I'm not concluding anything from the reference, just pointing out that "faith" relies on fancy to some degree, and that some Mormons might be more open to acknowledge it than Romney has been painted in this thread (and that the danger of fanciful beliefs is in the execution, not the belief itself).
I wasn't getting at much. Basically I agree with you. I just thought it was worth noting that South Park can make religions look even sillier than they are. And yeah, I understand satire.

What the episode presented also lines up with what I know about Mormonism, as little as it is, and the musical chorus of dum, dum, dum, dum, dum works better the more authentic the presentation is.

And yet, the goofy seeming history probably doesn't inform much of a current Mormon's faith anyway, which I think is part of your point about Romney, but not so much a point of South Park's general attitude toward religions.

Hasn't Romney kind of made the point that it's the faith that he grew up with, maybe as a way to suggest what you are saying, "yep, I'm Mormon but it's something I might have taken for granted rather than embraced intellectually as an adult?"

Last edited by UGAalum94; 02-14-2008 at 06:39 PM.
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  #47  
Old 02-14-2008, 06:38 PM
UGAalum94 UGAalum94 is offline
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Originally Posted by EE-BO View Post
MysticCat- you are not being a bigot at all, just telling it like it is. I won't repeat my Mormon rant here from the other Romney thread of a few weeks ago, but if you really get into the texts and beliefs it is some way out there stuff.

The best evidence of the dangers of this cult are how guys like Jeffords can run entire towns in Utah of child molesting polygamists and nothing gets done until the federal government takes action.

Most major religious groups do their part to distance themselves from the fanatics among them and do not shield them when they break the law.

Not so with the Mormon Church which for all practical purposes runs state and local government. And I think that says it all. The sin of omission is just as bad as being a participant.
Aren't you failing to discriminate between one corrupt offshoot unrecognized (and I think excommunicated) by the mainstream church and the mainstream LDS Church itself?

I think it's a big reach to say that the LDS for practical purposes runs the state and local government. When I was in Salt Lake City a couple years ago, they had a big Gay Pride parade and festival within a block of Temple Square. I'm not thinking the LDS was a sponsor.

No doubt, the Mormon church is influential, but I'm not exactly sure what you expected them to do about the Jeffords.
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  #48  
Old 02-14-2008, 08:23 PM
AOII_LB93 AOII_LB93 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UGAalum94 View Post
Aren't you failing to discriminate between one corrupt offshoot unrecognized (and I think excommunicated) by the mainstream church and the mainstream LDS Church itself?

No doubt, the Mormon church is influential, but I'm not exactly sure what you expected them to do about the Jeffords.
Do you guys mean Warren Jeffs?
This is a valid point. The group to which Jeffs was supposedly the "prophet", is the Fundamentalist Church of LDS...who were excommunicated by the "real" Mormon church, and it mainly had to do with the plural marriage aspect - which was generally banned by the "real" Mormons in 1890. Since 1904 (officially) those entering in to polygamous marriages are excommunicated. Large polygamist groups still exist, even in the SLC area, however they are not as numerous as people think. There are other divergences in belief, however the polygamy aspect is the largest of them.

Anyhow, enough of a sidebar...back to the topic.

Shinerbock, and EE-BO you both had very well written points. I'd say more about the original posting, you both have said what I thought to begin with anyhow.
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  #49  
Old 02-14-2008, 09:12 PM
UGAalum94 UGAalum94 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII_LB93 View Post
Do you guys mean Warren Jeffs?
This is a valid point. The group to which Jeffs was supposedly the "prophet", is the Fundamentalist Church of LDS...who were excommunicated by the "real" Mormon church, and it mainly had to do with the plural marriage aspect - which was generally banned by the "real" Mormons in 1890. Since 1904 (officially) those entering in to polygamous marriages are excommunicated. Large polygamist groups still exist, even in the SLC area, however they are not as numerous as people think. There are other divergences in belief, however the polygamy aspect is the largest of them.

Anyhow, enough of a sidebar...back to the topic.

Shinerbock, and EE-BO you both had very well written points. I'd say more about the original posting, you both have said what I thought to begin with anyhow.
I think so; your description matches up with who I had in mind. I didn't look up the name; I just went with what was there from EE-BO. Maybe he meant someone else. If so, I apologize for jumping the gun.

Last edited by UGAalum94; 02-14-2008 at 09:18 PM.
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  #50  
Old 02-15-2008, 12:35 AM
AGDee AGDee is offline
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I heard on the radio today that Romney will be endorsing McCain
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  #51  
Old 02-15-2008, 01:06 AM
Thetagirl218 Thetagirl218 is offline
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Yep! He endorsed McCain! I think it is rather sad when someone who fought against someone on so many key issues is now kissing their butt!!!

How many times did Romney and McCain have the Consverative arugement? And now he is just endorsing him because it is good for the party. It makes me want to go Independent.
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  #52  
Old 02-15-2008, 04:37 PM
UGAalum94 UGAalum94 is offline
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Originally Posted by Thetagirl218 View Post
Yep! He endorsed McCain! I think it is rather sad when someone who fought against someone on so many key issues is now kissing their butt!!!

How many times did Romney and McCain have the Consverative arugement? And now he is just endorsing him because it is good for the party. It makes me want to go Independent.
I know what you are saying, and yet, what are his options really?
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  #53  
Old 02-18-2008, 10:52 AM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UGAalum94 View Post
I know what you are saying, and yet, what are his options really?
There's an interesting take on it in the Washington Post today: Why Being the GOP's No. 2 Isn't So Bad.
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  #54  
Old 02-18-2008, 12:24 PM
KDAngel KDAngel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
There's an interesting take on it in the Washington Post today: Why Being the GOP's No. 2 Isn't So Bad.
The problem with that is how Romney stacked his cards this time... he made himself a despised character the last 2 months of his campaign (by all those who didn't support him) and he'll be ill-pressed to show back up for the presidency and do well.

I think by and large, GOPers are hoping someone develops as the presidential candidate they wish they had in this race by 2012. Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE McCainiac and I think people who didn't already like him are slowly going to turn to him for whatever reason, but I think on the GOP side, Americans are going to be looking for someone else. Not Romney who they knew they couldn't sell to a national audience anyway.
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  #55  
Old 02-18-2008, 12:37 PM
UGAalum94 UGAalum94 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
There's an interesting take on it in the Washington Post today: Why Being the GOP's No. 2 Isn't So Bad.
It's interesting to see the history out there so plainly. I never really thought that much about it before, but I agree I don't generally expect someone to win the GOP nomination on his or her first run, but instead, I think they put themselves out there to the national constituency and perform on that stage for a while. And then the next time(s), maybe.
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  #56  
Old 02-18-2008, 12:46 PM
UGAalum94 UGAalum94 is offline
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Originally Posted by KDAngel View Post
The problem with that is how Romney stacked his cards this time... he made himself a despised character the last 2 months of his campaign (by all those who didn't support him) and he'll be ill-pressed to show back up for the presidency and do well.

I think by and large, GOPers are hoping someone develops as the presidential candidate they wish they had in this race by 2012. Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE McCainiac and I think people who didn't already like him are slowly going to turn to him for whatever reason, but I think on the GOP side, Americans are going to be looking for someone else. Not Romney who they knew they couldn't sell to a national audience anyway.
I can't be sure that my experience is typical, but I didn't support Romney early on and I liked him more as the campaign went on. I certainly wouldn't describe him as a despised character within the GOP. It may be the case that your love for McCain is affecting how you think other people view Romney. (I don't mean anything insulting by this; I think it happens to us all.)

I think GOP voters will support McCain generally because they'd prefer him to the Democratic nominee, just as they would have supported Romney in the general had he won the delegates.

I don't know if McCain will really pull the independent votes in the general that people think he will, especially if Obama is the Democratic nominee.

I agree with you about 2012. I think voter turn out for the respective primaries reflects a certain apathy about any of the GOP candidates this time, and the party will have to do better.
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  #57  
Old 02-18-2008, 06:26 PM
KDAngel KDAngel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UGAalum94 View Post
I can't be sure that my experience is typical, but I didn't support Romney early on and I liked him more as the campaign went on. I certainly wouldn't describe him as a despised character within the GOP. It may be the case that your love for McCain is affecting how you think other people view Romney. (I don't mean anything insulting by this; I think it happens to us all.)
Actually I don't think that it does so much. Most people on the boards know I freelance entertainment reviews, but I write political commentary more than anything. So it's a pretty unbiased assessment, mixed with some political regurgitation popular among the most trusted pundits.

Romney did in fact turn off a lot of people starting in NH. Yes, he had a following, but too many people were catching wind of how he really was a flip-flopper. There was just an innate shallowness to him, that I think started to become so prevalent amongst the political community that he knew he would hurt his image, and thus career by staying in. That and statistically he had to win like 70% of the remaining primaries to get the delegates... I digress.
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  #58  
Old 02-18-2008, 07:37 PM
shinerbock shinerbock is offline
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I think Romney will be a strong contender in 2012 if McCain loses, just as he was a strong contender this year. As sad as it is, Romney battled name recognition even when he was the co-frontrunner. He'll retain a core that no other candidate will likely have, and his CPAC speech this year was a great start (many would argue the best of the campaign, and one of the better political speeches of the last decade).

I think the second time around is always dicey, but he'll have much more institutional support from the beginning next time. He'd also be following in the wake of a huge blow for the GOP (putting up a moderate few were excited about AND losing to boot), and he is certainly the biggest visionary among current party leaders. It will be interesting to see what he does in the meantime.

I also don't think he'd be a failure as a candidate in a future general. Hell, he's probably by far the best suited to take on Hillary or Obama head to head in substantive issues and in style points. Unfortunately the GOP didn't recognize that this time, but I think Romney will grow into a more familiar figure over the next four years, and there will be much less initial resistance to his candidacy. We shall see.
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  #59  
Old 02-18-2008, 08:45 PM
UGAalum94 UGAalum94 is offline
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Originally Posted by KDAngel View Post
Actually I don't think that it does so much. Most people on the boards know I freelance entertainment reviews, but I write political commentary more than anything. So it's a pretty unbiased assessment, mixed with some political regurgitation popular among the most trusted pundits.

Romney did in fact turn off a lot of people starting in NH. Yes, he had a following, but too many people were catching wind of how he really was a flip-flopper. There was just an innate shallowness to him, that I think started to become so prevalent amongst the political community that he knew he would hurt his image, and thus career by staying in. That and statistically he had to win like 70% of the remaining primaries to get the delegates... I digress.
Obviously, he wasn't popular enough by any standard, but what are you relying on to make the judgment that it was distaste for Romney rather than people's sense that McCain had established himself or that he was the more pragmatic choice?

This may strike you as odd, but I don't necessarily assume that what commonly read pundits and those who write political commentary say necessarily corresponds with reality more than my own experience or that it would necessarily be unbiased. You made kind of a weird appeal to authority there. What other evidence do you have?

I considered Romney the least noxious of the Republican candidates who were still in the race by the time I got to vote in Georgia, but I was never much of a fan with a whole lot of love to lose.
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