Wisconsin Capitol Building's "Holiday Tree"

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by southernfrat

happy...wait i mean MERRY CHRISTMAS yall

Amen, same to you sir.

[ThetaDancer]

Originally Posted by southernfrat

happy...wait i mean MERRY CHRISTMAS yall

That's worth repeating Hope everyone had a great day!

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by CutiePie2000

Since we have both Canadians and Americans weighing in on this topic, something to keep in mind:

"If people tell you they want to stick to the hard and fast rule of separation of church and state, tell them to consult Canada’s laws. That’s an American law. In Canada our laws are governed by religious accommodation."

Religious Accommodation true, but Canada doesn't have a separation of church & state; the Queen is the Head of State and the head of the Anglican Church and many of our foundational documents, laws, traditions and even National Anthem reflect that - which is why at state events and ceremonies it is an Anglican priest that leads the service parts (Remembrance Day, Opening of Parliament, Swearing in of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, Swearing in of the Governor General, etc.) and yet with all that it is interesting to note how we are pointed at as a secular nation with an assumed separation of church and state simply because of the principle of religious accommodation that took years to develop.

Oh one final note - Anglicans don't even come close to being the majority of Christians in Canada... Canada is a Catholic nation in practise (12 million Catholics to 9 million Protestants altogether).

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Religious Accommodation true, but Canada doesn't have a separation of church & state; the Queen is the Head of State and the head of the Anglican Church and many of our foundational documents, laws, traditions and even National Anthem reflect that - which is why at state events and ceremonies it is an Anglican priest that leads the service parts (Remembrance Day, Opening of Parliament, Swearing in of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, Swearing in of the Governor General, etc.) and yet with all that it is interesting to note how we are pointed at as a secular nation with an assumed separation of church and state simply because of the principle of religious accommodation that took years to develop.

Oh one final note - Anglicans don't even come close to being the majority of Christians in Canada... Canada is a Catholic nation in practise (12 million Catholics to 9 million Protestants altogether).

We're Catholic because of our French heritage. I think Protestants would outrank only slightly if we are talking about Canada outside Quebec (sure, many Quebecois don't go to church, but they consider themselves Catholic nonetheless.) And that's only if all Protestants are grouped together, whether they are fundementalists/evangelical/right wing or "main line."

Question: If the swearing in ceremony of the PM, Cabinet, GG, etc...what happens if the individual is not Christian and is uncomfortable with an Anglican priest? Do they decline?

[Thetagirl218]

Originally Posted by skylark

Slight hijack...

This thread reminds me of a clip of the new Huckabee holiday ad. Has anyone seen it aired? It features a bookcase that looks like a cross in the background (Huckabee says it was a coincidence) and Huckabee talking about the birth of christ, then wishing everyone a merry christmas. Huckabee was on the Today show and basically said people are too sensitive if they find the commercial offensive. Maybe he doesn't care about the Jewish voters out there?

Other politicians have holiday ads, like Obama. I'm pretty sure, though, that he says something like "happy holidays" if I remember the clip correctly.

I guess I would just hope that even though a majority of americans celebrate christmas, we know enough about the potential tyranny of majoritarian rule to acknowledge and respect the faiths of minorities as well, rather than telling them "suck it up -- you live in MY country and so you have to stand back and watch the government honor MY religion's holiday and don't even think about forcing me to acknowledge your inferior beliefs." That's at least the attitude I interpret from many "merry christmas" emphasizers these days.

Ok, I have to touch on this....

I have to admit I was little shocked at the Huckabee ad, but then think who is voter base is? Christians. In fact that is one of the main reasons he has jumped in the polls. One of the points he runs on is his religious roots, he was a Baptist preacher before he entered politics!

I liked the ad, and I thought it was funny everybody copied after him....

I have many friends who are Jewish, and they don't know mind if someone tells them Merry Christmas, they just wish Happy Hannukah was addded occasionally...

[Marie]

I've never understood why Christians fight so hard for the Christmas Tree, in particular, when it is not really a Christian symbol.

Anyway, I'm in agreement with whomever said 'why does the tree need a name anyway?' Is there a sign up that says Christmas/Holiday Tree?

[skylark]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

And i'm sorry, but anyone who says that America wasn't founded as a Christian nation is just lost in life. Just my opinion.

Totally entitled to your opinion of course, but I guess the authors of the constitution and bill of rights were "lost in life." I seem to remember something in there about the government not establishing any religion....

[skylark]

Originally Posted by CutiePie2000

If "Christmas" is so offensive for whoever out there, I fully expect them to be at work on December 25th.

I think you're missing the point. I don't think anyone is out there saying "christmas is offensive." They just don't want it being sponsored by government by being in a public building. I certainly hope you can appreciate the important distinction... and if you can't maybe you should ask yourself if it would offend you if you lived in a middle-eastern country, paid taxes, but were part of a christian minority... and the government put up non-christian religious symbols around the holidays, refusing to honor a christian minority with a christmas tree? Would that make you feel like your beliefs were being judged.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by skylark

I think you're missing the point. I don't think anyone is out there saying "christmas is offensive." They just don't want it being sponsored by government by being in a public building. I certainly hope you can appreciate the important distinction... and if you can't maybe you should ask yourself if it would offend you if you lived in a middle-eastern country, paid taxes, but were part of a christian minority... and the government put up non-christian religious symbols around the holidays, refusing to honor a christian minority with a christmas tree? Would that make you feel like your beliefs were being judged.

If I lived in a predominatly Jewish/Muslim/etc country/area, I would fully expect to see decorations up for their religious holidays, and I wouldn't find it offensive. And if I did, I suppose I would leave or get over it. (Yeah, that's oversimplified, but whatever).

[skylark]

Originally Posted by Thetagirl218

I have to admit I was little shocked at the Huckabee ad, but then think who is voter base is? Christians. In fact that is one of the main reasons he has jumped in the polls. One of the points he runs on is his religious roots, he was a Baptist preacher before he entered politics!

I liked the ad, and I thought it was funny everybody copied after him....

I have many friends who are Jewish, and they don't know mind if someone tells them Merry Christmas, they just wish Happy Hannukah was addded occasionally...

Totally agree -- the Christian base is exactly why he is doing it. I'm sure he doesn't care that he alienated other religions. He probably figures he won't get their vote anyway.

I guess that I am just a little put off when any politician panders to a specific religion. I think it minimizes the less religiously-charged issues like the environment and poverty to issues like abortion and gay marriage. I'd like to see some other issues discussed this year... I think whatever your position is on these issues, we could stand for taking some time off from issues that the government is never going to solve anyway.

[skylark]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

If I lived in a predominatly Jewish/Muslim/etc country/area, I would fully expect to see decorations up for their religious holidays, and I wouldn't find it offensive. And if I did, I suppose I would leave or get over it. (Yeah, that's oversimplified, but whatever).

Would it matter if you and your family were born there v. you as a foreigner moving there?

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by skylark

Would it matter if you and your family were born there v. you as a foreigner moving there?

Probably not, although I'll give you that it's easier for me to say because I'm not in that position. But it only goes as far as tolerance of other religions - I would NOT be okay with a government/society that promotes only one religion and forbids practise of other religions.

ETA: I had a very MILD chance to be in that position - I had a 3rd grade teacher that was Jewish, and she brought a Dreidel, Hanukiah, and we learned the songs "Dreidel, Dreidel, Dreidel" and "Chanukah, Oh Chanukah". I thought it was pretty cool, and didn't feel at all threatened as a Christian.

[skylark]

I guess I am just really sympathetic to religious minorities, especially around the holidays when everyone tends to get so "in your face" about celebrating christmas and if you don't celebrate it, then your lives should revolve around others who do. I mean, I certainly there are definitely worse things in the world, but I think it wouldn't kill us to make our society a little more friendly to people of any religion simply because that is what we would want if we were in their position.

Some factors I think that would make me feel isolated, uncomfortable, and just more difficult as a religious minority would be:
- having to use half my vacation time every year to celebrate my own religious holidays, while having to take random days off to honor religions that I don't celebrate.
- working or having to frequently visit a government building and listening to religious songs by carolers and having to walk by christian religious symbols every day.
- watching the media honor christian religious holidays with special programming every year while ignoring minority religions.
- being told "merry christmas" by every sales person for about a month every year and having them look offended at me if I don't return the sentiment or (gasp) say something like "happy hannukah" or "happy kwanzaa."
- watching my tax dollars spent on things that honor christian holidays (vacation of government employees, government christmas trees and nativity sets, government statues and other decorations that display christian biblical things, etc.)

(note: not all of these things I think can be solved, but I think that they are things to consider in possibly doing something symbolic that might really make someone feel more included ... like putting up a friggin menorah or other religions' symbols as ornaments on a "holiday" tree that taxpayers of all religions pay for.)

[skylark]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

ETA: I had a very MILD chance to be in that position - I had a 3rd grade teacher that was Jewish, and she brought a Dreidel, Hanukiah, and we learned the songs "Dreidel, Dreidel, Dreidel" and "Chanukah, Oh Chanukah". I thought it was pretty cool, and didn't feel at all threatened as a Christian.

Wow. I cannot imagine this happening today in a public school (I don't know if that applies to your school). In law school we had a jewish professor take off every year for a week to celebrate passover about 2 weeks before finals. Students complained that she shouldn't be allowed to do this because she should have to be available to answer questions in person and that it made her office too busy for one-on-one time the week before finals. I think that experience opened my eyes to just how ridiculous people can be in expecting the non-christian world to revolve around the Christian religion without making adjustments for minorities.

[Taualumna]

The thing is though, most of the in-your-face Christmas stuff is not even really Christian. It's completely commercial or has pagan roots (trees, lights, wreaths, etc.) You don't really see Nativity scenes anywhere outside of churches. Technically, Easter is supposed to be more important than Christmas. It's just commercialization that's made Christmas "more important" (that and the fact that kids get 2 weeks off from school...spring break isn't always around Easter)