Wisconsin Capitol Building's "Holiday Tree"

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The government doesn't want to be sued for endorsing a religion.

O



RLY?

[Kevin]

no rly.

See City of Edmond v. Robinson, 68 F.3d 1226 (10th Cir., 1995).
http://www.law.emory.edu/10circuit/o...-6237.wpd.html

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Kevin

no rly.

See City of Edmond v. Robinson, 68 F.3d 1226 (10th Cir., 1995).
http://www.law.emory.edu/10circuit/o...-6237.wpd.html

You messed it up.




C'mon guy - get with your Internet memes. I realize you're soon to enter the high-stakes world of family law, but you're not "Old Out of Touch Guy" yet, brotha!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

You messed it up.




C'mon guy - get with your Internet memes. I realize you're soon to enter the high-stakes world of family law, but you're not "Old Out of Touch Guy" yet, brotha!

My bad.

[skylark]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

O



RLY?

While your point is a well-founded reminder that this country has always had christian roots, I don't think that the "in god we trust" references necessarily invoke the endorsement of any one religion. Every religion that I know of believes in god in some sort. However, I think it is a different thing to have a symbol of one religion's winter holiday without acknowledging others.

Our local courthouse has two christmas trees, and I am almost certain that the county paid to have them there (I personally watched county employees setting it up). When in a government building that is paid for by all taxpayers (not just christians) I personally am a fan of having a display that recognizes the cultural celebrations of all faiths. For instance, I find that having a display of a menorah, christmas tree, candle display, santa, etc. promotes a feeling that all beliefs and all holiday traditions are valuable and are part of the overall holiday spirit.

[Cardinal026]

Originally Posted by skylark

For instance, I find that having a display of a menorah, christmas tree, candle display, santa, etc. promotes a feeling that all beliefs and all holiday traditions are valuable and are part of the overall holiday spirit.

I like this also. I'm a government contractor, and work with a lot of federal government employees. For the two years I've been on my project, at Christmas our office is decorated by people who want to. There's mini Christmas trees, there are still menorahs up with blue battery-operated lights, and in the fall, our muslim co-workers invited us to stay after to feast for Ramadan. I like all the diversity and culture, and no one seems to be offended since if they felt their culture wasn't represented - they could just bring something in also.

[sageofages]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

O



RLY?

Which god does this refer to?

Yours or Mine? Or my neighbors'?

Or My wiccan friends', my jewish friends', my hindu friends', my catholic friends', my methodist friends', my republican friends', my democratic friends', my libertarian friends'........

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sageofages

Which god does this refer to?

Yours or Mine? Or my neighbors'?

Or My wiccan friends', my jewish friends', my hindu friends', my catholic friends', my methodist friends', my republican friends', my democratic friends', my libertarian friends'........

Well, most of your Jewish friends aren't allowed to write the word "G-d" so your point, while well intentioned, is laughably short-sighted.

[skylark]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Well, most of your Jewish friends aren't allowed to write the word "G-d" so your point, while well intentioned, is laughably short-sighted.

Not all jewish people believe that this applies to "god" in english. My own understanding was that most jewish people think it is fine, but that might be because the jewish people I know tend to be on the more non-orthodox side. Jews that believe writing "god" is okay believe that the rule about not writing "god" down only applies in the ancient hebrew text. http://www.aish.com/rabbi/ATR_browse...tqak&offset=10

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by skylark

Not all jewish people believe that this applies to "god" in english. My own understanding was that most jewish people think it is fine, but that might be because the jewish people I know tend to be on the more non-orthodox side. Jews that believe writing "god" is okay believe that the rule about not writing "god" down only applies in the ancient hebrew text. http://www.aish.com/rabbi/ATR_browse...tqak&offset=10

I think you likely understand that my point stands as an example of why saying something as inane as "ALL RELIGIONS SAY GOD SO IT'S NOT CHRISTIAN!" absolutely is not correct, considering the founding of the nation and the fact that, indeed, other religions do not refer to God in that way. "Most" may have been an overstatement, though, I'll agree.

[skylark]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I think you likely understand that my point stands as an example of why saying something as inane as "ALL RELIGIONS SAY GOD SO IT'S NOT CHRISTIAN!" absolutely is not correct, considering the founding of the nation and the fact that, indeed, other religions do not refer to God in that way. "Most" may have been an overstatement, though, I'll agree.

I think that maybe we're dealing with something that is not as black and white as saying "all religions say god so it's not christian" (which I don't think anyone said on this thread, but is your summary of either mine or sageoface's comments). I agree that while the statement "in god we trust" may have originally been referring to a christian god (and acknowledged such in my earlier post)... but the government making such a statement does not carry with it the overt christian symbolism as a christmas tree or nativity scene. I tend to think that the sentiments expressed in the phrase "in god we trust" are consistent with most other religions, since most acknowledge a higher power. In contrast, the sentiments expressed by say, mary holding a baby jesus, is not an idea that is interchangeable with other religions.

[sageofages]

Originally Posted by skylark

I think that maybe we're dealing with something that is not as black and white as saying "all religions say god so it's not christian" (which I don't think anyone said on this thread, but is your summary of either mine or sageoface's comments). I agree that while the statement "in god we trust" may have originally been referring to a christian god (and acknowledged such in my earlier post)... but the government making such a statement does not carry with it the overt christian symbolism as a christmas tree or nativity scene. I tend to think that the sentiments expressed in the phrase "in god we trust" are consistent with most other religions, since most acknowledge a higher power. In contrast, the sentiments expressed by say, mary holding a baby jesus, is not an idea that is interchangeable with other religions.

Actually I think the founding fathers were very insightful in acknowledging a higher power "god" but to not delineate a specific "god". Government must grow to meet the needs of the entire population to be effective.

Yes they all were "christian" but the range of denominational belief is great.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Foundin..._Religion.html

Religious Affiliation
of U.S. Founding Fathers - # of Founding Fathers - % of Founding Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican - 88 - 54.7%
Presbyterian - 30 - 18.6%
Congregationalist - 27 - 16.8%
Quaker - 7 - 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/
German Reformed - 6 - 3.7%
Lutheran - 5 - 3.1%
Catholic - 3 - 1.9%
Huguenot - 3 - 1.9%
Unitarian - 3 - 1.9%
Methodist - 2 - 1.2%
Calvinist - 1 - 0.6%
TOTAL 204

Founding Father defined as one or more of the following:
- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress