oldest continuous chapter

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

There is no "I' sound like in pie in the Greek language.

So, does that mean that your sorority would be Al-fuh Om-mee-cron Pee?

Something about that doesn't seem right.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

So, does that mean that your sorority would be Al-fuh Om-mee-cron Pee?

Something about that doesn't seem right.

That actually is correct if you wanted to use classic pronunciations, but we don't. We use Pie as you well know. I don't feel in anyway less "greek" because my founders didn't choose to use that pronunciation.
Although, I think it would be O-meh-cron not Oh-mee-cron.
And...my husband learned his Greek not from his father, but from his Aunt who teaches Greek in Athens.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

This isn't really accurate.

Paging MysticCat!

You rang?

AOII Angel is indeed correct the name of the letter F is correctly pronounced FEE in Greek and that most GLOs use anglicized pronuncations of the Greek letter names. (Although off the top of my head I can't remember if there are any GLOs other than Alpha Xi Delta that use the Greek pronunciation rather than the anglicized. That's not counting, of course, those orgs that only use letters for which the Greek and anglicized pronunciations are essentially the same, like Kappa Delta. I say 'essentially" because in Kappa would be closer to Kahppa.)

The part that "isn't really accurate" is this:

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

There is no "I' sound like in pie in the Greek language.

There is an "I" sound in Greek; at least in classical Greek there is. I'm not sure how prevalent it is in modern Greek. As in most languages other than English, though, it is not represented by a single letter.

The sound we associated with I (eye) is a diphthong, or glided vowel -- two vowel sounds pronounced one after the other in the same syllable with no break in between. Pay attention to your tongue and mouth when you say "eye" (and say it slowly) and you'll notice that you start with the "ah" vowel and end with the "ee" vowel. (If you listen to a trained singer, you'll notice that he or she, if an "eye" sound falls on a longer note, holds the "ah" until almost the end of the note, only moving to the "ee" at the very end.)

In classical Greek, this diphthong would be represented by alpha (ah) iota (ee) together -- ai. Thus, while the letter iota alone does not indicate an "eye" sound, alpha and iota together do. (Or did.) So, for example, the Greek word for "and" -- kai -- would be pronounced like the common American pronunciation of the name of the letter Chi and would rhyme with the English "pie."

[Fleur de Lis]

Wow, I feel smart just for reading that post.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

You rang?

AOII Angel is indeed correct the name of the letter F is correctly pronounced FEE in Greek and that most GLOs use anglicized pronuncations of the Greek letter names. (Although off the top of my head I can't remember if there are any GLOs other than Alpha Xi Delta that use the Greek pronunciation rather than the anglicized. That's not counting, of course, those orgs that only use letters for which the Greek and anglicized pronunciations are essentially the same, like Kappa Delta. I say 'essentially" because in Kappa would be closer to Kahppa.)

The part that "isn't really accurate" is this:
There is an "I" sound in Greek; at least in classical Greek there is. I'm not sure how prevalent it is in modern Greek. As in most languages other than English, though, it is not represented by a single letter.

The sound we associated with I (eye) is a diphthong, or glided vowel -- two vowel sounds pronounced one after the other in the same syllable with no break in between. Pay attention to your tongue and mouth when you say "eye" (and say it slowly) and you'll notice that you start with the "ah" vowel and end with the "ee" vowel. (If you listen to a trained singer, you'll notice that he or she, if an "eye" sound falls on a longer note, holds the "ah" until almost the end of the note, only moving to the "ee" at the very end.)

In classical Greek, this diphthong would be represented by alpha (ah) iota (ee) together -- ai. Thus, while the letter iota alone does not indicate an "eye" sound, alpha and iota together do. (Or did.) So, for example, the Greek word for "and" -- kai -- would be pronounced like the common American pronunciation of the name of the letter Chi and would rhyme with the English "pie."

I completely agree with this. I was incorrect in saying there is no I sound...there is no letter that alone makes the I sound. It's interesting too that many of the sounds we associate with the greek letters are not the sounds used by Greeks. Our written out spelling of Greek letters are english not Greek. A is called alpha but not spelled out as alpha, etc. It's the name of the greek letter the same as A is "aye" in english. Thanks for the Greek lesson, MysticCat! I also miswrote about the Alpha Xi Delta comment. What I meant was they were the only other group with an I in their name that pronounces the name in the classical greek manner. Some of the americanized greek letters do sound the same as the classical pronunciations.

[AOII Angel]

By the way, MysticCat...did you study classical Greek in school? I'm very interested in your background!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Our written out spelling of Greek letters are english not Greek. A is called alpha but not spelled out as alpha, etc.

This is why I'm always amused when someone tries to spell out the names of the Greek letters using Greek letters and spells Alpha ALPHA. Ummmm, that spells "Alpea." Alpha would just be ALFA. (Whenever one sees "ph" in an English word, one can pretty safely bet that the word comes from Greek and that the "ph" was originally F).

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

By the way, MysticCat...did you study classical Greek in school? I'm very interested in your background!

No, I didn't -- just one of the things I've made general, informal study of on my own. Probably didn't hurt that there are quite a few ministers in my family, so I grew up in an environment that valued some understanding of the New Testament in Greek -- that plus an education that stressed an understanding of Greek and Latin roots of words. (Yes, I'm that all old. ) In addition, with a music background, singers have to learn rules of pronunciation for foreign languages even if they don't have a clue what the words mean -- I can sing or "speak" Italian like a pro, even if I can only guess at what I'm talking about. That's probably given me a facility for paying attention to how foreign words are pronounced.

All of that means that I can be pretty good at figuring out the meanings of lots of Greek and Latin words, and I can be pretty good at figuring out how to pronounce those words, but I'd be lost trying to put a Greek or Latin sentence together. The rules of grammar and syntax I know not at all.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

This is why I'm always amused when someone tries to spell out the names of the Greek letters using Greek letters and spells Alpha ALPHA. Ummmm, that spells "Alpea." Alpha would just be ALFA. (Whenever one sees "ph" in an English word, one can pretty safely bet that the word comes from Greek and that the "ph" was originally F).

I feel the same way. I find your story very interesting. I, on the other hand, am horrible at pronunciation. I can read languages, but don't try to make me speak them. I guess it's embarassment from trying to speak a foreign language with a southern accent. Nothing ever sounds right.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

In addition, with a music background, singers have to learn rules of pronunciation for foreign languages even if they don't have a clue what the words mean -- I can sing or "speak" Italian like a pro, even if I can only guess at what I'm talking about.

You obviously didn't have my voice teacher. All arias/lieder/chanson must not be sung until you are able to recite them as a poem, and fluidly give both a literal and poetic translation. And trust me, "Tell me What Love Is" =/= "Voi Che Sapete". Tried that one. Luckily I was studying Spanish at the same time, so the Italian was similar, and German is easy, due to the similarities in English. And my teacher gave up on French with me. Nevermind that I studied French 2 years in highschool and my teacher was the French diction teacher, singing + French + me = disaster. Even now, I can barely eek out an acceptable Habanera, and that's about it.