The link between Greek membership and social conservatism

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by Little32

So you wouldn't say that Delta has some values that might be considered conservative in this day and age?

Hmmm, not really. Our values are around service, sisterhood, scholarship and social action. But as you said it is all relative, like considered conservative by whom?

[Little32]

Right and I think for some just the notion of a sorority, with all that is implicit in that, seems conservative. Also, I am sure that Delta as an organization has certain expectations surrounding behaviors and activities where members are concerned that many do feel are conservative. It is a difficult conversation to have because the idea of conservatism is so broad--and I am willing to bet that we were not much of a consideration in much of the research anyway.

[LPIDelta]

We should also consider that in addition to upbringing, beliefs can be cultural or generational. I find as a generation that the current crop is more accepting of some things than mine was.... and I am sure older generations say the same of my generation.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Scandia

My family is very conservative overall- and not fond of GLOs at all. I am a fence-sitting moderate, and I am an A Phi O brother and am pursuing AI as well.

I do not notice this in APO.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Well most fraternities strive to live up to values and a set of beliefs that were established 100+ years ago, a time when American culture was conservative, so this is not at all very surprising. Also, if you look at the things that most Greeks do, (serenades, pinnings, date parties,etc) it is kind of a throw back to an older generation.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I think private social clubs are going to be more resistant to social change because of the self-selected nature of members. The present group of members looks for a new set most like them, which tends to perpetuate holding the same ideas and values over time.

There's also a principle that suggest that being in groups with people who are politically the same makes the positions of the group members more extreme than being in groups that are mixed by ideology. (It makes sense. Your constantly reinforcing rather than challenging each other, if nothing else.)

So if the same idea is true in purely social groups, the prevailing ideology of the group may perpetuate itself. Since the groups have set traditions and history, it attracts traditionalist and the cycle continues.

Originally Posted by GeekyPenguin

I would say that on a whole the NPC/IFC organizations still tend to be conservative. Certainly I've observed this in the south, but even in the midwest it's there. Why is that? Probably because GLOs were a place where people could be excluded. At first, you didn't have to let in the Catholics or the Jews. Then they slowly became okay, but you still didn't have to let in the African-Americans or Latino/as. Greek organizations have always been a little behind the civil rights movements (with the possible exception of women's suffrage) and more conservative people probably flocked to them as a place where their values were being "upheld" as the norm still.

Ok, this makes sense.

Originally Posted by summer_gphib

I think there is truth to that, but I also think that sororities and fraternities are steeped in tradition. That tradition has appeal to those who are more unwilling to embrace new ideas. Tradition is one of the things I love the most about my sorority. It's an unchanging bond in a world of constant change.

Although I am a liberal. And I am still wearing my birkenstocks. *grin*

I'm not sure what you mean by "tradition" in this context.

Originally Posted by AlethiaSi

My sorority, being local in NY, we had a variety of girls that were attracted to membership (in any greek org on campus) but primarily within our org, it was the girls, our laid back style, house, social and service functions and cheaper dues (... like 600 dollars cheaper) amongst many other reasons. Is it possible that the cheaper dues attracted liberal members? lol, i couldn't even begin to make assumptions about that, but I know it was a bonus for me.

Overall, we were primarily liberal, we had a few conservative members, but there is actually a rule in our consititution that forbade anyone from discussing politics or religion in the house (obvi we didn't always follow this, but the rule made sense and we tried to as best we could)

I think that everything that everyone has brought up are good ideas about why this is (more or less) true. I think that the throw back to older ideals and standards of behavior is responsible (amongst other things, but I'm making a generalization)
However, I'm not from the south, or the midwest (though my family is) and am very liberal (raised that way) so I can't speak of the traditions elsewhere.

p.s. very interesting topic Dionysus

Thanks.

The "no discussion of politics/religion" rule is a good idea...if people cannot be civil.

Originally Posted by ladygreek

Hmmm, not really. Our values are around service, sisterhood, scholarship and social action. But as you said it is all relative, like considered conservative by whom?

Ok. While a lot of NPHC Greeks are democrats, I still think a lot of you guys are on the socially conservative side also. Why do you think that is so?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by summer_gphib

I think there is truth to that, but I also think that sororities and fraternities are steeped in tradition. That tradition has appeal to those who are more unwilling to embrace new ideas.

Or, perhaps, they are people who are open to embracing new ideas, but unwilling in the process to ignore or lose the wisdom of those who have gone before.

Originally Posted by AlethiaSi

. . . but there is actually a rule in our consititution that forbade anyone from discussing politics or religion in the house (obvi we didn't always follow this, but the rule made sense and we tried to as best we could)

Originally Posted by Dionysus

The "no discussion of politics/religion" rule is a good idea...if people cannot be civil.

I would have been very uncomfortable with and put off by a rule like this. What kind of brotherhood could I experience in my fraternity if I was forbidden or discouraged from discussing the values -- spiritual and political -- that matter to me and that are an intrinsic part of who I am? To me this seems like a cop-out that deprives members of one of the lessons I value from my fraternity experience -- learning that I can still honestly call someone "brother" when we have different views.

[AlethiaSi]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I would have been very uncomfortable with and put off by a rule like this. What kind of brotherhood could I experience in my fraternity if I was forbidden or discouraged from discussing the values -- spiritual and political -- that matter to me and that are an intrinsic part of who I am? To me this seems like a cop-out that deprives members of one of the lessons I value from my fraternity experience -- learning that I can still honestly call someone "brother" when we have different views.

Like I said, we didn't always follow the "rule", it was more of a guideline. If it got out of hand (which it did on a few occasions, but it was mostly outsiders discussing with sisters) it was reinforcement that we should probably stay away from those topics for awhile. However, on the whole, I had really great enriching conversations with my sisters.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AlethiaSi

Like I said, we didn't always follow the "rule", it was more of a guideline. If it got out of hand (which it did on a few occasions, but it was mostly outsiders discussing with sisters) it was reinforcement that we should probably stay away from those topics for awhile. However, on the whole, I had really great enriching conversations with my sisters.

I understand what you're saying. I would just rather learn how to talk about those things without it getting out of hand than feel like we had to "stay away from those topics for awhile."

[AlethiaSi]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I understand what you're saying. I would just rather learn how to talk about those things without it getting out of hand than feel like we had to "stay away from those topics for awhile."

I agree with you, I wish it didn't have to be that way.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I understand what you're saying. I would just rather learn how to talk about those things without it getting out of hand than feel like we had to "stay away from those topics for awhile."

As usual MysticCat is right on the nail. Why deal with the elephant in the room? If these organizations are for bettering ourselves (which I believe they are, there are certain skills I have learned from my chapter that I wouldn't have elsewhere), then I believe it's also necessary to discuss these topics and learn to be civil to one another. One thing I didn't care for during my active time was being told what to wear, what to say, where to go.
We had one republican in our chapter, whom we all adored. We had jewish girls who just wouldn't participate in the christian aspects of ritual, and who were allowed to observe their religion if it conflicted with a sorority function.

If someone told me I couldn't discuss politics or religion? Hello?! I'm a poli sci major! The only times to avoid it are during recruitment.

[TSteven]

The Spirit of Sigma Chi, as conceived by the Founders more than 150 years ago yet visible and alive today, is based on the theory that...

... Friendship among members, sharing a common belief in an ideal, ...

... and possessing different temperaments, talents, and convictions, ...

... is superior to friendship among members having the same temperaments, talents, and convictions, and that. . .

... Genuine friendship can be maintained without surrendering the principle of individuality or sacrificing one's personal judgment.

"The Spirit" is a concept that comes straight from the founders' unfortunate experience in another fraternity, which the founders saw as a group focused on conformity for political gain. The founders wanted a spirit of nonconformity in Sigma Chi. Though "The Spirit" calls for men who are inherently "different," it is expected that the members, in their differences, remain responsible, honorable, gentlemanly, friendly -- indeed all those characteristics listed in "The Jordan Standard."

[Sugar08]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

IOk. While a lot of NPHC Greeks are democrats, I still think a lot of you guys are on the socially conservative side also. Why do you think that is so?

First off, interesting topic, Dionysus.

I think Blacks on the whole are pretty socially conservative (a tactic Black Republicans use when explaining their alliance with the GOP) when it comes to issues of homosexuality and abortion ... in general, things that "threaten" the morality of an overwhelmingly Christian upbringing.

We tend to be liberal when it comes to issues that relate to oppression and unfairness.

I think this social conservatism is reflected in the members of our organizations. NPHC organizations may swing slightly to the left, but only because their members have generally been exposed to more education and liberal thinkingthan the average population.

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by Little32

Also, I am sure that Delta as an organization has certain expectations surrounding behaviors and activities where members are concerned that many do feel are conservative.

But then not really, because imo we have done a good job in changing our old protocols to today's way of dress, and have broadened them to basically just saying wear your symbols with respect.

As for behaviors, I don't think a prohibition against public drunkeness, or not running to the store with rollers in your hair while wearing letters would be considered conservative--just common sense. And what internal dress codes we still use or more ritualistic rather that a matter of liberalism or conservatism. Because there is a special meaning behind them--know only to us.

And again I will point to our social action thrust and the issues we endorse are not socially conservative by anyone's definition. For example No Child Left Behind. We are still a sorority where the majority of our members are in the field of education. And as an organization, we challenged the Act, because of what it would mean in communities of color.

Another example, when I was on the national board we invited Clarence Thomas to speak with us before his confirmation. (He had been a law student of one of our past national presidents.) We challenged him on his views and although we cannot endorse candidates, he knew that the message would go out that we did not support the issues he championed. (And neither did his old law professor who was the first Black woman appointed to the US Civil Rights Commission.)

This is not to say that we don't have conservative members in our sorority who are also given the opportunity to express their views, but when it comes right down to our resolutions the over whelming majority vote on the ones that are socially liberal.

So again, I think it boils down to one's definition of liberalism and conservatism. But to me Delta is a liberal and very tolerant organization.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

So again, I think it boils down to one's definition of liberalism and conservatism.

I guess for me this about sums it up. I think most NPHC organizations, and I single them out because they are the ones that I am most familiar with, are quite progressive on social issues, while at the same time having members that socially conservative in their own lives (which I think is what the OP refers to--the body of members). It certainly isn't a black or white issue.

[violetpretty]

There are two types of conservatives that we are talking about: people who follow their own moral code, and people who vote for Republicans.

I identify as politically liberal. I generally agree with Democrats. However, I didn't drink at all until I turned 21 and am not a huge partier. I also refuse to have sex with someone with whom I am in love and with whom I am in a committed relationship. Mind you, this code that I established for myself has nothing to do with religion. Some people think that's conservative.

I can think of plenty of "conservatives" that have loose morals. I can also think of plenty of "conservatives" that have strict morals. Likewise, I can think of liberals with a strict moral code, and liberals with a loose moral code. When I said GLOs tend to attract "conservatives", I was talking about people who vote for Republicans, moral code optional.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Benzgirl

There are areas of the midwest that is considered Conservative, but the residents are very poor and uneducated, just as other areas are wealthy and educated.

The way you worded this implies that the only areas that are (C)conservative in the Midwest are the poor/uneducated ones.

The Midwest is in many ways as conservative as the South, however the large urban areas like Chicago and St. Louis are much more liberal. Illinois is only a "blue state" because of Chicago, and Missouri can go back and forth depending on the issues. However, Central and Southern Illinois are not uneducated and poor. If anything the education is, on a whole, better than that of poor inner city schools.

Not to say that there aren't bad schools and uneducated people around here, but rural doesn't equal poor and uneducated, it just means you combine school districts and drive a bit further. Ohio hardly counts as the midwest in the first place, so don't speak like you know it if you're going to get it wrong.