Sexual orientation and MS

[RU OX Alum]

i would be upset if a brother was gay and didn't tell anyone. Being open is cool, but there are not supposed to be secrets between brothers.

[Low C Sharp]

To me, they stick out like a sore thumb.

Well, the ones that you notice stick out like sore thumbs.

But how would you know whether there are substantial numbers of gay men in your state who can "pass"? Unless they come out to you -- and based on what you've said, they would have to be crazy to come out to you -- how would you ever know? Only those of us they come out to privately realize just how prevalent they are, even in the most conservative churches, towns, and schools.

I won't go so far as to say that there are definitely gay men in your chapter, because I don't know how big your chapter is or whether you are so openly hostile that private gay men choose to stay away. But I feel very comfortable saying that you know gay men who you do not know are gay. The more traditional your social circle is, the more certain I am of that.

And to take it a step farther, why should any of us need to know?

Well, I certainly hope that my close friends would trust me enough to tell me. I understand why it might take time, but I need my friends to have faith in me in order to have a true and deep friendship.
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GLASS BUBBLERS

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Well, the ones that you notice stick out like sore thumbs.

But how would you know whether there are substantial numbers of gay men in your state who can "pass"? Unless they come out to you -- and based on what you've said, they would have to be crazy to come out to you -- how would you ever know? Only those of us they come out to privately realize just how prevalent they are, even in the most conservative churches, towns, and schools.

I won't go so far as to say that there are definitely gay men in your chapter, because I don't know how big your chapter is or whether you are so openly hostile that private gay men choose to stay away. But I feel very comfortable saying that you know gay men who you do not know are gay. The more traditional your social circle is, the more certain I am of that.

You know, I just really have to disagree with you. I may know of some people that might be, but they aren't people that I would consider close. Close friends, ( quite a few of them) I don't have a doubt in my mind.

.........and I do know gay men who.........are gay. Haha.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

i would be upset if a brother was gay and didn't tell anyone. Being open is cool, but there are not supposed to be secrets between brothers.

Maybe, but in the real world there are always secrets between brothers, sisters, siblings, married couples, parents and children, etc.

I think a persons sexual orientation is important to the person and his or her partner (or potential partner) and nobody else.

[Tom Earp]

We had a gay Brother who I was not aware him being gay until after he had graduated. I was an Alum of course.

But he was one of the hardest working Brothers in the Chapter. We still stay in touch as he is still my Fraternal Brother amd a good friend.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Maybe, but in the real world there are always secrets between brothers, sisters, siblings, married couples, parents and children, etc.

I think a persons sexual orientation is important to the person and his or her partner (or potential partner) and nobody else.

I just find it hard to believe that you wouldn't be the least bit irritated if you lived with a guy who didn't tell you he was gay...........and then you had to find out about it randomly.

Maybe you would, but it seems like you wouldn't have a problem with it.

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I just find it hard to believe that you wouldn't be the least bit irritated if you lived with a guy who didn't tell you he was gay...........and then you had to find out about it randomly.

Why? You can't catch it by breathing the same air. And if you didn't know, then he obviously was not displaying the "behaviors" you find disgusting.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

Why? You can't catch it by breathing the same air. And if you didn't know, then he obviously was not displaying the "behaviors" you find disgusting.

Yes......but If I walked in to my room and he was banging his friend Chuck.....he would be displaying the "behaviors I find disgusting."

....and yes, I know I can't catch gay. But I could catch a glimpse of him being gay relatively close to my parameter, which wouldn't fly. Sorry, I have a dislike of all things gay for several reason. I would have a major problem with a roommate who hid something like that from me and the other men in the house.

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Yes......but If I walked in to my room and he was banging his friend Chuck.....he would be displaying the "behaviors I find disgusting."

....and yes, I know I can't catch gay. But I could catch a glimpse of him being gay relatively close to my parameter, which wouldn't fly. Sorry, I have a dislike of all things gay for several reason. I would have a major problem with a roommate who hid something like that from me and the other men in the house.

I understand what you are saying, but your statement was if you didn't know and heard it somewhere else. That would imply, to me, that he wouldn't be banging Chuck in your room. He would be discreet enough that you had to hear it elsewhere. That's the point I was addressing.

Very honestly, I would hope that you wouldn't walk in on a hetero roommate banging Charlene. In both cases those are inappropriate behaviors regardless.

[Little32]

^^I had a friend in college whose roommate used to have sex with his girlfriend while he was in the room. Blech! That is disgusting behavior regardless of the gender of the partner.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

Very honestly, I would hope that you wouldn't walk in on a hetero roommate banging Charlene. In both cases those are inappropriate behaviors regardless.

Not near as bad. Not even within the same realm actually.

[shinerbock]

I always find this debate interesting. If some fraternities want to welcome gay members into their organization, by all means, they should feel comfortable doing so. However, I think many are reluctant to do this, and I think that is understandable for a couple of reasons:

1) A lot of fraternities value Christian ideals. Many see homosexuality as immoral, and may be hesitant to endorse that lifestyle. Of course, some will likely see such an objection as hypocritical, considering other practices that are common in fraternities. That being said, tolerating or even encouraging some morally questionable activities isn't a persuasive reason to accept or encourage other objectionable activities.

2) Inviting someone into your fraternity usually leads to significant and extended contact with that person. In my opinion, doing so requires more than the level of "tolerance" that is often trumpeted in the workplace or other organizations. Many or most of these people will live together, take trips together, and experience social lives that are intertwined. A lot of guys get uncomfortable around overt homosexual activity. In my opinion this is usually natural, and not indicative of any conscious intolerance.

-I have a problem with the idea that fraternities are expected to be places of diversity. Fraternities, at least the ones I was around, did not intend to be microcosms of society. They were places for like-minded people to join together to pursue common interests and goals. If you like a potential member overall, then take him. However, I don't think fraternities should necessarily abide by the reasoning that they should take a potential member because they like him in every aspect except for his homosexuality. One's sexual orientation may be a big deal to an organization, and I don't have a problem with it being a deal breaker (nor do I have a problem with religion or ideology being one).

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Maybe, but in the real world there are always secrets between brothers, sisters, siblings, married couples, parents and children, etc.

I think a persons sexual orientation is important to the person and his or her partner (or potential partner) and nobody else.

right, but if we never talk about who we are dating, or whatever....i mean yeah, there are secrets from brothers but in order to be brothers you have to share some secrets

[FloridaTish]

I was reading this thread and it reminded me of one of my good friends who was a PIKE at FSU in the 80's. Ever since I've known him, I knew he was gay and we've talked about whether his homosexuality was an issue in college.

According to him, none of his brothers knew he was gay. They thought he was just a little different because his family was from Charleston.

To this day, that still cracks me up...

[Low C Sharp]

tolerating or even encouraging some morally questionable activities isn't a persuasive reason to accept or encourage other objectionable activities.

It's a darn good reason to drop the hypocritical charade that you are in some sense a "Christian" organization.
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