Spirituality and Character in Fraternities...

[Kevin]

Wow..not to hijack, but the Bible says nothing about abstaining from drinking. It just talks about drunkenness being a sinful thing.

I've actually heard some people talk about wine in the Bible actually being grape juice. How freaking ignorant is that?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Wow..not to hijack, but the Bible says nothing about abstaining from drinking. It just talks about drunkenness being a sinful thing.

I've actually heard some people talk about wine in the Bible actually being grape juice. How freaking ignorant is that?

I don't think it's a matter of ignorance - more that they're saying that the word that meant "wine" really properly translated means "juice from grapes." For the record, I don't agree, but I'm just saying it's not necessarily something someone's pulling out of the air to make it sound like wine = bad.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I don't think it's a matter of ignorance - more that they're saying that the word that meant "wine" really properly translated means "juice from grapes." For the record, I don't agree, but I'm just saying it's not necessarily something someone's pulling out of the air to make it sound like wine = bad.

I think it's an indication of ignorance of the times though. VERY fresh grape juice might be ok, but you have to ferment the stuff to keep it safe to drink. (There's a reason why people drank beer and not water throughout much of history and it's not for the taste.)

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I don't think it's a matter of ignorance - more that they're saying that the word that meant "wine" really properly translated means "juice from grapes."

It has to be remembered that until 1869, when Thomas Bramwell Welch came up with a method of pasteurization that prevented the fermentation of grape juice, "grape juice" was simply newly-pressed wine that hadn't fermented yet. There was no way, short of drinking it, to keep it from fermenting (or spoiling).

The reality is that most of the Hebrew or Greek words usually translated as "wine" in English Bibles suggest at least some level of fermentation. Nevertheless, there are those who argue that when the Bible refers to "new wine," for example, it is referring to juice of the grape that hasn't fermented yet.

It should also be remembered that when Alexander conquered Palestine, the people there adopted the Greek custom of diluting wine with water.

[Kevin]

Luke 21:34 -- "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."

Romans 13:13 -- "Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying."

Ephesians 5:18 -- "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit."

1 Timothy 3:8 -- "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre."

... it seems the wine back then might have had alcohol in it.

[MysticCat]

Kevin -- There are about 10 different Hebrew words and 4 different Greek words that are typically translated into English as "wine," "new wine," "strong drink," or the like. Use of these words is not limited to warnings against drunkenness -- think of the wedding at Cana, for example.

The argument that some people make is that some of those 14 terms may not necessarily refer to fully-fermented wine, but may instead refer to the juice of grapes (or other fruits, like pomegaranites) that either has not begun fermenting or is only slightly fermented. Most scholars disagree with that argument.

I've never heard anybody suggest that all of the wine mentioned in the Bible was non-alcoholic. (I have, however, heard suggestions that Jesus would only partaken of the "not-yet-fermented" wine. )

/detour

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Luke 21:34 -- "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."

Romans 13:13 -- "Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying."

Ephesians 5:18 -- "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit."

1 Timothy 3:8 -- "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre."

... it seems the wine back then might have had alcohol in it.

Ahh, but "Drunkeness" could also be translated to "happy" in some archaic language, too, I suppose.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Kevin -- There are about 10 different Hebrew words and 4 different Greek words that are typically translated into English as "wine," "new wine," "strong drink," or the like. Use of these words is not limited to warnings against drunkenness -- think of the wedding at Cana, for example.

The argument that some people make is that some of those 14 terms may not necessarily refer to fully-fermented wine, but may instead refer to the juice of grapes (or other fruits, like pomegaranites) that either has not begun fermenting or is only slightly fermented. Most scholars disagree with that argument.

I've never heard anybody suggest that all of the wine mentioned in the Bible was non-alcoholic. (I have, however, heard suggestions that Jesus would only partaken of the "not-yet-fermented" wine. )

/detour

He was the Vegan of his time. You know, those annoying buggers who insist that everything be made special for them. (I keed, I keed)

[elwoodpfiggs]

Hi! This is Phil again -- the new guy who started the thread.

On the subject of wine in the Bible, here is a thought: I think that the water that Christ turned into wine was probably actual wine, not just grape juice. If you remember the story, the wine that Christ provided was very good, which led the wedding guests to question why the best wine had been saved until the end of the feast. My understanding of this is that the really good wine was traditionally served earlier in the evening and the cheap stuff was saved for later when the guests would have been less discerning of its inferior quality.

I think it was Kevin who pointed out that the Bible does not openly condem drinking, only drunkeness. (Wasn't it Paul who wrote that a little wine each day is good for you?) However, the Bible DOES talk about repecting the law and the leadership of one's country. Underage drinking, then, is not consistent with that mandate -- that is my opinion, anyway.

In addition to the t-shirts on ebay, I am also unhappy that there have been actives in my own chapter in recent years who have had their girlfriends live with them for the summer in the chapter house. Speaking in a strictly practical way, this is a lawsuit waiting to happen! That aside, premarital sex in the house really goes against our historical roots. I'm not even sure that most acitves realize this.

There has probably always been premarital sex in frats, but at least there used to be some shame attached to it. People realized they were doing wrong and that if they were caught there would be punishment. I don't think that is particuarly true anymore. Guys are pretty open about the fact that their girlfriends are living with them. Bring back those blue-haried housemothers of the old days!

Speaking of housemothers/fathers, I'm just not convinced that a senior who has graduated in May is likely to be an effective housefather the following fall. I'm sure some of them are, but I'll bet many are not very successful as disciplinarians/moral examples. If I had a son who wanted to move into a house where the housefather had been a senior in the active chapter just a few months before, I think I would consider that the boys in that house were living more or less unsupervised. Maybe I'm being unfair, do you think?

Phil

[elwoodpfiggs]

Phil:

And I must note that there are many fine fraternity members who do take their organizations seriously.

These are just my observations. I wonder what some of these org.'s founders would think or say regarding their members actions and motives today.


Please note that I mean no offence to anyone or to any organization.[/QUOTE]

None taken; you were very diplomatic and insightful in what you said.

Good to hear from you, and congratulations on starting your college career. I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed mine.

I am glad to hear that you are looking at fraternities. Shop around, however, and see if you can find what you're looking for: a place where you will fit in and where your beliefs will be not just tolerated but respected.

(By the way, I clicked on the link to your photography. You are really good! Will you study this in college?)

Phil

[frattypalmtree]

the bible is so boring and everybody knows its fake anyway. i saw a thing on the discovery channel about it.

[elwoodpfiggs]

I can't say I agree with you, Fratty; some of the most exciting stories I know are in the Bible!

As for the show on the Discovery Channel...I haven't seen it. I'd like to, though. The folks who made it (the show) may have had some preconceived notions before they started; I wouldn't be surprised if they did not have a few biases/prejudices of their own. I suppose the Discovery Channel is just like all other networks: trying to keep their content compelling to reenforce ratings. Advertising is the name of the game, so you've got to keep people watching!

(This is off topic, but didn't things get out of hand/downright MEAN on the thread about whether fraternities help guys find girlfriends? It got way off topic, and then people got really hateful. I don't there's any reason for that. It's not what I come here looking to find, so I'm just not going back to that thread.)

Phil

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by elwoodpfiggs

I can't say I agree with you, Fratty; some of the most exciting stories I know are in the Bible!

As for the show on the Discovery Channel...I haven't seen it. I'd like to, though. . . .

Phil, surely you didn't take his post seriously. 'Cause it wasn't worth taking seriously.

[Corsulian]

While it is not wrong to consider those shirts and slogans ill toward the overall image of a sacred organization, it also should not be construed as malicious or anti-religious. Christianity does say that what comes out of the mouth is born from the heart--and all expressions, including shirts, would likely be included in that idea. Pretty much all the other religions have the same idea. But someone who doesn't follow this probably shouldn't be considered evil.

Many (most?) members of Fraternity & Sorority Life do not join because of the creeds or oaths. They join because of the social aspect presented to them--that's how most organizations rush. Even rule-full sororities tend to have girls just go around talking to sisters. What do those sisters say? They say what they do--what's fun about the sorority--not usually the incredible power of everlasting principles to live by and enforce between each other.

Most college students are not inclined to limit the freedom of speech or expression in any way and often enjoy testing its limits. Any effort to tell a fraternity that the "Rush XYZ--We Like It On Top" or whatever is contrary to the principles will likely not work. Calmly asking them not to do it--50/50.

Ignoring the Fraternity & Sorority Life side of it, I'd chalk it up to someone seeing a TV show he or she doesn't like it because it's offensive. Then don't watch it. Everyone is offended by something.

One the Fraternity & Sorority Life side of it, they're having some fun. They don't mean any harm. Educate them--they'll learn eventually.

Few people join our organizations because we preach to them--they join because they want to have fun and have a great experience. Things like the character of the organization being threatened--these are things alumni and alumnae are concerned with.

Our principles, creeds, etc. are indeed sacred and important as are the values of any religion or organization--but they're never going to be 100% followed by 100% of the members. We wouldn't need each other or our organizations if people were like that.

[BYXEagle]

Well i don't know about all the Christian fraternities. I know at BYX you have to be of legal age and not a pledge. You can't drink wearing your letters or if you are an officer. I don't make it a big issue the Christian fraternity thing. I do have a problem with other fraternities that don't act Christian getting offended by the Christian fraternity thing. You are right for the most part the Christian fraternities don't compete for the same guys that regular fraternities compete for. I know usually we don't rush the same times regular fraternites do, because we just don't really do it. Vanderbilt BYX has done it and done it successfully. They have led all fraternities in recruitment for 2 years. The way I see it, is that there is no reason that there aren't enough guys rushing for everyone. I just have a hard time understanding why so many regular fraternities attack Christian fraternities etc.