Stereotyping HBCU's

[BlessedOne04]

Originally Posted by ziasha07

I feel like I/we will receive a more well rounded education (Life experiences outside of the classroom) at an HBCU than I will at a PWI.

I am not so sure I can agree with you here. I think life experiences are unique to each person. For example I went to predominately Black schools through high school and I loved that experience. However for college I felt as though I needed a change so I went to a PWI and for me it gave me a well rounded education. The reality is that college is what YOU make it and you can learn as much or as little about life anywhere you go. The determining factor is how open or closed you mind is.

I have heard alot of different stereotypes from friends who went to HBCU's. Being smarter, I believed half of what people said! In looking for colleges I went on two college tours, one for HBCU's and one for PWI. There were pros and cons to both. Needless to say that money, Mommy, and level of comfort were what made my ultimate decision.

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by BlessedOne04

I am not so sure I can agree with you here. I think life experiences are unique to each person. For example I went to predominately Black schools through high school and I loved that experience. However for college I felt as though I needed a change so I went to a PWI and for me it gave me a well rounded education. The reality is that college is what YOU make it and you can learn as much or as little about life anywhere you go. The determining factor is how open or closed you mind is.

I have heard alot of different stereotypes from friends who went to HBCU's. Being smarter, I believed half of what people said! In looking for colleges I went on two college tours, one for HBCU's and one for PWI. There were pros and cons to both. Needless to say that money, Mommy, and level of comfort were what made my ultimate decision.

You have a point. My daughter grew up in MN needed the HBCU experience. I on the other hand grew up in St. Louis, lived in an all Black neighborhood and attended an all Black high school. I needed the PWI experience to understand that not all White folx were like the ones in the Lou.

[ziasha07]

Originally Posted by BlessedOne04

I am not so sure I can agree with you here. I think life experiences are unique to each person. For example I went to predominately Black schools through high school and I loved that experience. However for college I felt as though I needed a change so I went to a PWI and for me it gave me a well rounded education. The reality is that college is what YOU make it and you can learn as much or as little about life anywhere you go. The determining factor is how open or closed you mind is.

I have heard alot of different stereotypes from friends who went to HBCU's. Being smarter, I believed half of what people said! In looking for colleges I went on two college tours, one for HBCU's and one for PWI. There were pros and cons to both. Needless to say that money, Mommy, and level of comfort were what made my ultimate decision.

Originally Posted by ladygreek

You have a point. My daughter grew up in MN needed the HBCU experience. I on the other hand grew up in St. Louis, lived in an all Black neighborhood and attended an all Black high school. I needed the PWI experience to understand that not all White folx were like the ones in the Lou.

True true. I've been going to mostly white schools my whole life. HBCU's just seemed like the only option for me. One of my friends is opposite. She's a rising senior who has been going to mostly black schools. She's looking at all PWI's.

[BlessedOne04]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I needed the PWI experience to understand that not all White folx were like the ones in the Lou.

At least you saw white people!!

[IvySpice]

And don't get me started in the direction of "retention rates" of AfAms at non-HBCU's. Let's just say these schools rates are piss poor too, including Ivy Leagues...

I have the greatest respect for HBCU's and the many extraordinary leaders they've produced, but what you're saying about the Ivy League just isn't true. As of 2005, the black graduation rate at Harvard is the highest in the country, higher than any HBCU. In fact, all 8 Ivy League schools have higher black graduation rates than the HBCU with the highest black graduation rate (Spelman).

http://www.jbhe.com/features/50_blac...gradrates.html

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by IvySpice

I have the greatest respect for HBCU's and the many extraordinary leaders they've produced, but what you're saying about the Ivy League just isn't true. As of 2005, the black graduation rate at Harvard is the highest in the country, higher than any HBCU. In fact, all 8 Ivy League schools have higher black graduation rates than the HBCU with the highest black graduation rate (Spelman).

http://www.jbhe.com/features/50_blac...gradrates.html

Soror, based on my assessment of the article, it clearly states the following:

For many years Harvard University, traditionally one of the nation's strongest supporters of affirmative action, has produced the highest black student graduation rate of any college or university in the nation. But for some unexplained and possibly immaterial reason, Harvard slipped to second place in 2004. But now Harvard's black student graduation rate has increased to 95 percent, once again the highest among U.S. colleges and universities.

and

We come now to a most disappointing set of statistics. The graduation rate of African-American students at the nation's historically black colleges and universities (HBCUs) tends to be much lower than the graduation rate for black students at the nation's highest-ranked institutions. Yet the graduation rate at a significant number of HBCUs is well above the nationwide average for black student graduations, which, as stated earlier, currently stands at an extremely low rate of 42 percent.

By a large margin, the highest black student graduation rate at a historically black college belongs to the academically selective, all-women Spelman College in the city of Atlanta. In fact, the Spelman black student graduation rate of 77 percent is higher than the black student graduation rate at 13 of the nation's 56 high-ranking predominantly white colleges and universities referred to earlier. Spelman's unusual strength shows in the fact that it has a higher black student graduation rate than such prestigious and primarily white colleges as Bates, Colby, Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, Claremont McKenna, and Carnegie Mellon.

Following Spelman in the rankings, the next-highest black student graduation rate among the HBCUs was at Morehouse College and Fisk University. At Morehouse and Fisk, 64 percent of the entering black students go on to graduate within six years. Hampton University, Miles College, Howard University, and Elizabeth City State University in North Carolina sadly are the only other HBCUs that graduate at least half of their black students within six years.

How many non-ivy league schools can compare to those like Harvard? And what actual statistical measurements are they ranking. Those rates of Black students graduating from a "Harvard" percentage compared to those Black students graduating from the highest graduating ranked "Spelman" school. And the numbers for comparison are suspect.

They obtained the data from the NCAA--National Collegiate Athletic Association and analyzed by the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education... I find it extremely convenient for them to obtain and analyze stats from NCAA then say it is Dept. of Education records. Dept. of Ed. does not = NCAA.

At the last 4 universities I worked in 3 states, the retention and graduation rates of all identified African American students had dismal results.

Or, that could be the thing about Harvard, once they admit you, they will make sure you graduate in something... It may not be your first choice in your goal, but you will succeed in something, even though it is "underwater basketweaving".

The HBCU's do not readily pass folks in classes, nor do they care about your ability to pay, on time, even if they have the financial aid check... I know my professors would be flunking entire classes... And don't skip class, or rather don't get caught skipping...

[IvySpice]

First, I have to identify myself as a non-D9 member. I chose this username before I realized that it might be misinterpreted as an AKA or Alpha Phi identifier. So please forgive me if I was misleading; I don't mean to misrepresent myself as a member of your great org.

Second, getting to the point ,

How many non-ivy league schools can compare to those like Harvard?

About 20 of them, according to the article, plus another 12 or 15 small colleges. My original post was responding to a specific statement about the Ivy Leagues that was incorrect. The Ivy League school with the lowest black graduation rate is Cornell at 83%. This is better than the HBCU with the highest graduation rate. Even if you believe that Harvard is handing out degrees in "underwater basketweaving" to all comers, do you believe that about Caltech, MIT, Rice, and Notre Dame, all of which have higher black graduation rates than any HBCU?

My point is this. HBCUs are the best choice for many students for a long list of reasons, many of which satisfied alumni have already pointed out on this thread. But high graduation rates are not on the list. The majority of students at the HBCUs with the highest graduation rates (such as Spelman, Morehouse, Howard, Fisk, and Hampton could go to top-20 PWIs like Harvard if they wanted to, so it really doesn't matter to them that the black graduation rate at fourth-tier PWIs is pitiful. The students we're talking about are choosing between HBCUs and the Ivy League et al., and the Ivy Leagues are doing a very good job of graduating their black students. That doesn't mean it's wrong to choose an HBCU over an Ivy -- it just means that it's wrong to suggest that "piss poor" black graduation rates at the Ivies ought to be a factor in the decision.

I find it extremely convenient for them to obtain and analyze stats from NCAA then say it is Dept. of Education records. Dept. of Ed. does not = NCAA

The NCAA is required to collect and report the data according to guidelines set by the Department of Education. That's why the data can be considered both NCAA and DoE statistics.

http://www.psu.edu/ur/archives/inter.../gradrate.html (scroll to the bottom of the page)

Do you have any reason to doubt that the NCAA information is accurate? I trust that the folks at JBHE know what they're talking about.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by IvySpice

About 20 of them, according to the article, plus another 12 or 15 small colleges. My original post was responding to a specific statement about the Ivy Leagues that was incorrect. The Ivy League school with the lowest black graduation rate is Cornell at 83%. This is better than the HBCU with the highest graduation rate. Even if you believe that Harvard is handing out degrees in "underwater basketweaving" to all comers, do you believe that about Caltech, MIT, Rice, and Notre Dame, all of which have higher black graduation rates than any HBCU?

Most Ivy Leagues are universities with secondary degrees. They are calculating these numbers from the graduate school education. Most grad schools only admit those students they plan to graduate, period... It does not look good if they flunk students out in grad school. No where in the report I read indicated they only have Undergraduate numbers. So the comparion to HBCU vs. Ivy Leage numbers is unfair, even if we are talking the HBCU that have graduate programs. There are now ~10 schools: Howard, Meharry, Morehouse Med, Atlanta U., FAMU, Bethune-Cookman and I think Virginia Union. There are a few others, but I don't remember off hand. Spelman, since I graduated there and donate all my Alumnae money to, does not have a graduate school...

My point is this. HBCUs are the best choice for many students for a long list of reasons, many of which satisfied alumni have already pointed out on this thread. But high graduation rates are not on the list. The majority of students at the HBCUs with the highest graduation rates (such as Spelman, Morehouse, Howard, Fisk, and Hampton could go to top-20 PWIs like Harvard if they wanted to, so it really doesn't matter to them that the black graduation rate at fourth-tier PWIs is pitiful. The students we're talking about are choosing between HBCUs and the Ivy League et al., and the Ivy Leagues are doing a very good job of graduating their black students. That doesn't mean it's wrong to choose an HBCU over an Ivy -- it just means that it's wrong to suggest that "piss poor" black graduation rates at the Ivies ought to be a factor in the decision.

But based on the total population that the Ivies have and graduation rates they claim in this report do not correlate with the numbers I have read or calculated. Yes, 8 out of 10 are graduating--but out a population of 100 where half drop out? That is an unfair correlation. This was a prospective study, after data was calculated and it was a cross-sectional. A snapshot is showing a pretty picture. But when you make the comparison to non-Af Am students, it is a poorer prognosis for self-ID'ed AfAm students.

The NCAA is required to collect and report the data according to guidelines set by the Department of Education. That's why the data can be considered both NCAA and DoE statistics.

http://www.psu.edu/ur/archives/inter.../gradrate.html (scroll to the bottom of the page)

Do you have any reason to doubt that the NCAA information is accurate? I trust that the folks at JBHE know what they're talking about.

These rates are almost 10 years old. How are they significant today? Then they were developed by a nonHBCU school. Yet, still it is used as a marketing tool against HBCU's even if it is subliminal. "We have better graduation rates if you attend here vs. Spelman..." "Blah Blah Blah..."

And people buy into this "excellent education" at a quasi Ivy League school to make a misconceived quota one must fulfill. Well, with marketing and targeting like this without full examination of the data by professionals--and yes, I am one of them, to query significant questions, you dayum right I am not trusting anything these folks say at first glance. Also, I have young people coming to my office constantly crying as to the isolation they feel while attending these schools. No, I don't do these kind of formal research projects, I do more biomedical ones, but I still educate students and am forced to do Black College Professor teaching on these same students that I know still exists in the classrooms at HBCU's...

So, when I recommend schools to high school folks, I ask them, do you want to stay home, or do you want to go away?