Hazing dilemma...

[macallan25]

Leave the chapters alone and deal with outstanding/more serious happenings. To me, this is what it seems like goes on at most big schools/chapters in the South. Maybe i'm forgetting if it has happened, but it just doesn't seem like big powerful chapters are going to get shut down over anything that is not pretty damn serious.


......and Tom.....I don't know of a single chapter that follows every single guideline and regulation set forth by their Nationals. That is a little bit of a stretch to say that they should all be followed to the letter of the law.

[tallgreekalum]

This gets into the whole "letter of the law" vs letter of the real law. Most of us would not agree with state law/university definitions of hazing. Often, requiring a pledge pin could be illegal. Sending pledges to a "greek 101" type anti-hazing meeting many schools require could be illegal

I think that our position, pragmatically, is to employ a "stupidity meter", so to speak. Public pledge humiliation, for instance, is probably treated more seriously that private activities. Is that right? I'm reminded of the line from Animal House, "they can't do that to our pledges, .........."

I think the key is to get members to think about each activity they involve pledges in and what it is supposed to achieve, and try to design activites that accomplish the same goals in as low-risk a way as possible. But often "pride goeth before the fall" If everything else is going well, chapters are often reluctant to address pledge program issues.

[ladygreek]

Heck, we don't have a problem suspending an old chapter. We have suspended Alpha Chapter on more than one occasion.

[Sugar08]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

Heck, we don't have a problem suspending an old chapter. We have suspended Alpha Chapter on more than one occasion.

Word. Same goes for my org.

[AGDee]

I agree with adpiucf that it doesn't have to be quite that black and white. Education and extra support can go a long way in turning an otherwise strong chapter around with regards to hazing attitudes. Some of that depends too on how serious the infractions are though and how widespread and ingrained the problematic behaviors are. Just saying "Don't do that anymore" also isn't enough though. You have to actually teach them how to do it differently because they really don't know. Sometimes you can find ways to turn a tradition gone wrong back into something positive with a few changes so the basic idea is the same but the way it is implemented is more safe. It's also more difficult if the general campus culture encourages it. I have definitely heard "But the other chapters are WORSE" as a defense and that doesn't cut it.

[Hayden Fox]

I think it should be left up more to each individual chapter. I don't think some 50 year old man from 1000 miles away should decide what I can and can not do, and I'm not just talking about hazing or anything like that. I'm talking about dry houses, too. Why should a 21 yr old not be able to drink a beer at his house if he wants to? I don't break a lot of rules, but some of the rules made by Nationals are stupid.

Originally Posted by Hayden Fox

I don't think some 50 year old man from 1000 miles away should decide what I can and can not do...

Then why'd you join your fraternity in the first place?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Hayden Fox

I think it should be left up more to each individual chapter. I don't think some 50 year old man from 1000 miles away should decide what I can and can not do, and I'm not just talking about hazing or anything like that. I'm talking about dry houses, too. Why should a 21 yr old not be able to drink a beer at his house if he wants to? I don't break a lot of rules, but some of the rules made by Nationals are stupid.

Why not join a local/take your chapter local?

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by Sugar08

Word. Same goes for my org.

I know .

[fectin]

I would make them sit through many, many boring meetings.
That's something noone likes, and it's a clear causal relationship: "If we hit people with bats, we have to do sensitivity training again."
Really bad cases are one thing, but to just get people to be a bit more civilised? Long, boring meetings.

[tallgreekalum]

[QUOTE=macallan25;1454471]Leave the chapters alone and deal with outstanding/more serious happenings. To me, this is what it seems like goes on at most big schools/chapters in the South. Maybe i'm forgetting if it has happened, but it just doesn't seem like big powerful chapters are going to get shut down over anything that is not pretty damn serious.

The question becomes what is "serious". (Inter)nationals ARE cutting loose chapters over rules violations. Phi Delt has closed down a fair number of chapters and several others have gone local over the dry house issue. Kappa Sig shut down Ole Miss and others over dry house. If they'll do it over dry house, they'll certainly do it over hazing. Your own (you are an SAE?) Duke Chapter is now an AD Chapter because of nationals threat to shut down what was a big, old chapter at the top of it's game. Sigma Nu at Vandy over hazing. The list goes on. That's ok, AD will pick up the pieces Our realistic policies are attracting more ex-national chapter locals into the fold.

[macallan25]

[QUOTE=tallgreekalum;1454547]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Leave the chapters alone and deal with outstanding/more serious happenings. To me, this is what it seems like goes on at most big schools/chapters in the South. Maybe i'm forgetting if it has happened, but it just doesn't seem like big powerful chapters are going to get shut down over anything that is not pretty damn serious.

The question becomes what is "serious". (Inter)nationals ARE cutting loose chapters over rules violations. Phi Delt has closed down a fair number of chapters and several others have gone local over the dry house issue. Kappa Sig shut down Ole Miss and others over dry house. If they'll do it over dry house, they'll certainly do it over hazing. Your own (you are an SAE?) Duke Chapter is now an AD Chapter because of nationals threat to shut down what was a big, old chapter at the top of it's game. Sigma Nu at Vandy over hazing. The list goes on. That's ok, AD will pick up the pieces Our realistic policies are attracting more ex-national chapter locals into the fold.

Yeah, I realize they ARE shutting down chapters.....but keep in mind the type of chapters I was talking about. When they start shutting down chapters like SAE at Alabama or Phi Delt at Ole Miss.......then get back to me. There are plenty of chapters that I think most would agree are....above the law....so to speak.

[banditone]

[quote=macallan25;1454922]

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

Yeah, I realize they ARE shutting down chapters.....but keep in mind the type of chapters I was talking about. When they start shutting down chapters like SAE at Alabama or Phi Delt at Ole Miss.......then get back to me. There are plenty of chapters that I think most would agree are....above the law....so to speak.

Man, I used to agree with you.... I seriously thought that Sigma Nu at the following were way above the law & untouchable: Kansas, Arkansas, Arizona State, Washington State, LSU, Colorado State, Vanderbilt, and WAY back in the day - Texas.

However, our nationals has shown that they don't care how strong you are; you are subject to all the same regulations as even the smallest and newest chapter.

[Kevin]

Ep Ep was never shut down... at least not that I know of.

[banditone]

I'm almost positive they were. For at least a year because of a monster fight or something. I'll look for the article and PM it to you.

[edit] removing Okie State as I don't see where nationals ever closed them down.