Lawmakers Find $21 a Week Doesn't Buy a Lot of Groceries

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I tend to go more towards the side Kevin is arguing in all of this, only because I don't know of an easy answer. Would people be ok if taxes skyrocketed for more programs, like the maternity leave program in Australia? Would people be ok if other programs were cut in favor of increased funding for the homeless? Do people want all their paychecks to go to taxes? Do you put your energies on the older people who are now homeless, or do you focus more on the children and teens who have an opportunity to turn around their lives?

We ought not spend our hard earned money on folks who did not earn money in their lifetimes. Those people are wastes of oxygen in my opinion. I'll bet if we quit giving them $21/week in food stamps, they'd get jobs... or they'd die.

With all the suffering in the world, someone kicking off because they were too lazy to do the sort of work Americans won't do doesn't bother me so much.

I don't know, I just don't see it as an easy issue. I agree with Monet that education is a huge (probably the biggest) part in this whole thing.

I agree. This is one reason I'm a HUGE supporter of NCLB. Our schools are basically our first lines of defense against poverty. I'd like to see the KIP (Knowledge Is Power) program used in more places. We have one here in probably the poorest part of town in OKC. The school is 96% minority. Those kids go to that school from 7:30AM to 5PM. They have at least 3 hours of homework every night. Despite the fact that they're basically all poor, 85% of these kids go to college.

I have no problems investing my money in education. I do have a problem investing my money with people who merely want my money so that they may continue to not miss their daytime TV.

[susan314]

Originally Posted by Kevin

We ought not spend our hard earned money on folks who did not earn money in their lifetimes. Those people are wastes of oxygen in my opinion. I'll bet if we quit giving them $21/week in food stamps, they'd get jobs... or they'd die.

With all the suffering in the world, someone kicking off because they were too lazy to do the sort of work Americans won't do doesn't bother me so much.

Wow. Just wow.

Kevin, there have been a few points that I haven't completely disagreed with you on, but this is just shocking to me.

Most senior citizens did work hard in their lifetimes. In fact, many of them worked harder than any of us ever will. The world has changed greatly, in ways that people may never have been able to anticipate back then.

Yes, we in modern times know not to trust/rely on a company sponsored pension and social security...because we've seen so many seniors get the rug pulled right out from under them. But 50 years ago, that was not the common mindset. People back then assumed that if they provided a lifetime of loyalty and hard work to an employer, then they would be taken care of in retirement. Unfortunately, now they've seen benefits and pensions get slashed at the same time cost of living has skyrocketed.

I agree that if a person has been lazy their whole life and never contributed to society, then maybe we shouldn't have to worry about holding him/her up now. But I don't think those people are anywhere close to the majority of senior citizens on food stamps. That generation knew how to work...hard. And we've all benefited from the fruits of their labor. The idea that you think these people should just hurry up and die absolutely horrifies me.

[DeltAlum]

With a slightly different situation to the original discussion, I would simply point out that some people (like our middle child -- a daughter now 27 years old) do make some very bad decisions, some (as they grow up) realize that and honestly try to realign their lives.

It isn't easy. Bad habits (drugs in her case) died hard, and trying to right problems like her credit is a long and difficult process. Bouncing back from a bad marriage, especially when a child is involved is painful -- especially when the father lends little or no support.

Do we punish those people for the rest of their lives for mistakes made when they were young and stupid?

I should say that our daughter has never taken a cent of entitlement money (we've had to help her -- a lot) but, seeing the situation, I would not have disapproved if she had.

She has been "sober" now for six or seven years, but is still struggling financially -- even though she has always had a job and works hard in her profession, although that was not always the case.

So, again, do we throw these people and their children away because of mistakes in the past?

[JWithers]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

With a slightly different situation to the original discussion, I would simply point out that some people (like our middle child -- a daughter now 27 years old) do make some very bad decisions, some (as they grow up) realize that and honestly try to realign their lives.

It isn't easy. Bad habits (drugs in her case) died hard, and trying to right problems like her credit is a long and difficult process. Bouncing back from a bad marriage, especially when a child is involved is painful -- especially when the father lends little or no support.

Do we punish those people for the rest of their lives for mistakes made when they were young and stupid?

I should say that our daughter has never taken a cent of entitlement money (we've had to help her -- a lot) but, seeing the situation, I would not have disapproved if she had.

She has been "sober" now for six or seven years, but is still struggling financially -- even though she has always had a job and works hard in her profession, although that was not always the case.

So, again, do we throw these people and their children away because of mistakes in the past?

I agree that many people (myself included) made bad choices in their youths. HOWEVER, I had to grow up, correct my mistakes (in my case, post-college credit card debt) and work double-time to make things right. My parents refused, and rightfully so, to help me out of the mess I made of my finances. I did not ask for, nor did I receive assistance in paying off my debt. I worked 2, sometimes 3 jobs, lived frugally and managed to pay it off in 3 years.

It wasn't easy and sometimes I was angry with my parents for not helping me, or jealous of my friends who didn't have to spend 1/2 their salaries fixing stupid mistakes. But I learned a lesson.....THEY WERE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR FIXING MY LIFE. That's my job. Period.

No, you shouldn't pay for youthful mistakes your whole life. You should make it right and get in gear. I am sorry for your daughter's woes, but only she can put her life back together and move on. I thank my parents for teaching me that lesson the hard way.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by susan314

Wow. Just wow.

Kevin, there have been a few points that I haven't completely disagreed with you on, but this is just shocking to me.

Most senior citizens did work hard in their lifetimes. In fact, many of them worked harder than any of us ever will. The world has changed greatly, in ways that people may never have been able to anticipate back then.

Civilized society should provide the necessities for those who cannot provide for themselves. As for those who simply don't want to provide for themselves, I think society owes them nothing.

Now, the elderly, in most cases cannot work. Therefore, I have no problem with providing help. My argument really doesn't reach them.

Yes, we in modern times know not to trust/rely on a company sponsored pension and social security...because we've seen so many seniors get the rug pulled right out from under them. But 50 years ago, that was not the common mindset. People back then assumed that if they provided a lifetime of loyalty and hard work to an employer, then they would be taken care of in retirement. Unfortunately, now they've seen benefits and pensions get slashed at the same time cost of living has skyrocketed.

That is unfortuante. As I said though, I'm happy to have a little bit of my income redistributed to those who for whatever reason have no ability to provide for themselves -- especially when their situation is no fault of their own.

I agree that if a person has been lazy their whole life and never contributed to society, then maybe we shouldn't have to worry about holding him/her up now. But I don't think those people are anywhere close to the majority of senior citizens on food stamps. That generation knew how to work...hard. And we've all benefited from the fruits of their labor. The idea that you think these people should just hurry up and die absolutely horrifies me.

I think you're mistaken as to my meaning. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Hope this helps.

[susan314]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Civilized society should provide the necessities for those who cannot provide for themselves. As for those who simply don't want to provide for themselves, I think society owes them nothing.

Now, the elderly, in most cases cannot work. Therefore, I have no problem with providing help. My argument really doesn't reach them.



That is unfortuante. As I said though, I'm happy to have a little bit of my income redistributed to those who for whatever reason have no ability to provide for themselves -- especially when their situation is no fault of their own.



I think you're mistaken as to my meaning. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Hope this helps.

That makes a little more sense. (Not that I completely agree with all the points you've been trying to make in this thread, but you've at least clarified the post I had referenced.)

[SmartBlondeGPhB]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Now, the elderly, in most cases cannot work. Therefore, I have no problem with providing help. My argument really doesn't reach them.

You should re-read your response on page 1. You specifically did mention the elderly.

[SmartBlondeGPhB]

It's interesting how people's opinions on topics like these are shaped by their own life experiences. Those who've been there and gotten themselves out of it vs those who've had things handed to them by their parents and other people they know.

[JWithers]

Originally Posted by SmartBlondeGPhB

It's interesting how people's opinions on topics like these are shaped by their own life experiences. Those who've been there and gotten themselves out of it vs those who've had things handed to them by their parents and other people they know.

ITA. I wouldn't have posted the first word on this subject if I had a free ride from mommy and daddy. If that is your situation, great for you. You should appreciate it. I don't put anyone down for that. I wish mine had helped me more.

But I have worked my butt off and paid for my own education (and post-grad debt) and I know whereof I speak. I knew I had to do it, I made calls, asked questions, filled out paperwork. I can't understand why anyone would think someone else owes them that. That a load.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Kevin

We ought not spend our hard earned money on folks who did not earn money in their lifetimes. Those people are wastes of oxygen in my opinion. I'll bet if we quit giving them $21/week in food stamps, they'd get jobs... or they'd die.

With all the suffering in the world, someone kicking off because they were too lazy to do the sort of work Americans won't do doesn't bother me so much.

Kevin--

Most of the time agree with you. But these statement. Can you be any more heartless and so hardened? Do you call yourself a Christian with your kind of thinking? Stewardship, Lovingkindness and Charity? These ideals are all parts of LOVE... We Christians are called to follow one last commandment to "love one another"... Who are you on that trail to Jericho?

You are turning your back on humanity. Another name it is called idolatry--attempting to be beyond the view of God. Fact is, in the course of life you NEVER KNOW if loss of everything including your mind and credibility can happen. Just ask Job, if you think it doesn't. And guess what, folks that lose everything think it would NEVER happen to them in a million years. So, it is prudent to show some humility and without prejudice. Because ultimately, you will die someday... And if you believe in God and Christ, then you will have to explain that dash in between your birthdate and death date.

Now, I know you support many wonderful things and several positive forces in your life have provided aspects in your life to bequeathed you with the degrees, knowledge and training for the career of your wildest dreams. You have been truly blessed to be in your position. However, many extremely impoverished people have criminal records. So, inevitably we, the taxpayers, wind up paying for them anyway... I would prefer remediation, with homeless assistance and education rather than prison anyday. It is cheaper in the longrun. And now the poor recividism from prison release without proper retraining has become a public health issue.

All people deserve dignity... That is a Geneva Convention under the world court. Overt starvation without the state's attempt to improve it is a human rights violation, moreover, it is tortuous for government agencies not to protect the dignity and rights of all its people within its borders.

With this, I will leave you with Langston Hughes poems:

Dream Deferred

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sag
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?



Mother to Son

Well, son, I'll tell you:
Life for me ain't been no crystal stair.
It's had tacks in it,
And splinters,
And boards torn up,
And places with no carpet on the floor—
Bare.
But all the time
I'se been a-climbin' on,
And reachin' landin's,
And turnin' corners,
And sometimes goin' in the dark
Where there ain't been no light.
So, boy, don't you turn back.
Don't you set down on the steps.
'Cause you finds it's kinder hard.
Don't you fall now—
For I'se still goin', honey,
I'se still climbin',
And life for me ain't been no crystal stair.

[AKA_Monet]

JWithers--

Ever heard of the Prodigal Son?

Well, we former Deacons are asked to be of "sympathy" when we take an oath before God...

People hurt. Suffering is our lot in life. But as a Christian, I believe in hope for things unseen. Which means, I believe in hope in other people who "society" has deemed as failures. Without questions, without judgments, without discussion, I have been asked to trust and help people.

You cannot ask a bootless man, to lift himself up by his bootstraps... (MLK)

We can be better, hopeful and mindful of Love to Mankind.

Freely we serve, as freely we Love... As angels we climb to strive to our closeness to our Divinity...

Hey, if you are not about that, cool. And I will pray for you so that you gain understanding...

Lastly, Biblically, it does say, "Man does not live by Bread alone" and "I shall give you 'living water'"...

We not only have to feed people fish--we must teach them how to fish...

[JWithers]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

JWithers--

Ever heard of the Prodigal Son?

Well, we former Deacons are asked to be of "sympathy" when we take an oath before God...

People hurt. Suffering is our lot in life. But as a Christian, I believe in hope for things unseen. Which means, I believe in hope in other people who "society" has deemed as failures. Without questions, without judgments, without discussion, I have been asked to trust and help people.

You cannot ask a bootless man, to lift himself up by his bootstraps... (MLK)

We can be better, hopeful and mindful of Love to Mankind.

Freely we serve, as freely we Love... As angels we climb to strive to our closeness to our Divinity...

Hey, if you are not about that, cool. And I will pray for you so that you gain understanding...

Lastly, Biblically, it does say, "Man does not live by Bread alone" and "I shall give you 'living water'"...

We not only have to feed people fish--we must teach them how to fish...

OMG. All I said was that anyone can go to college. I never said let starving people starve. I never said let the homeless die. I never said get rid of welfare.(although it does need reform) Don't put words in my mouth.

I said that everyone has free access to an education. There is not some hidden code or hierarchy. You just apply for grants and scholarships and fill out your paperwork and you got to college.

And do not preach to me. I am a strong woman of faith and I do believe in Christ's commands that we love our neighbors as ourselves. I am active in my church and carry with me the fruits of the spirit everyday in a bracelet on my arm. One of which is self-control. You and only you are in charge of your destiny. God gives you whatever you begin with and it isn't always much. But He expects you to mkae the most of the gift of life and not blame others when you don't succeed.

I do NOT believe that someone has the right to point a finger at me and say "she didn't tell me how to get into college". I mean c'mon, if you haven't the gumption to fill out a few forms, then how can you say it's my fault you didn't go to college?????

My ONLY statement was in reference to education, and of course I did make an earlier statement earlier about the choice to have children out-of-wedlock and then find yourself alone to raise them.

It is all about choices. That's all I am saying. The Lord helps those that help themselves.

It is ridiculous to intimate that I am not a Christian because I think people should apply for their own college grants instead of giving up and saying they can't afford college becasue the world is against them.

If I have to repeat this one more time I'm gonna need a nap. College, College, College. Not food stamps, not welfare, not WIC.......

I said everyone can go to college if they really want to . Yeeash!!!

[preciousjeni]

I'm going to post this story again because it is valuable:

I was just talking with a coworker yesterday about poverty. She started out on welfare and was raising three children on her own. She didn't have enough money or time to get educated and had to make do with a low paying job and little funding from the government. She and those like her who have little education often make poor life decisions because they don't know what is available to them. It becomes oppressive and breeds hopelessness. So many people in poverty are either depressed or angry. The angry ones sometimes resort to criminal activity to take what they need. The depressed ones fall further and further away from any chance of a better life as they settle into what they believe is all the only life they can achieve.

The coworker I was talking with is one of the few from the circle of people she grew up with who now has a decent job and good benefits for her family. She told me that she came to a realization that everything is a choice and she was making bad ones. How did she know this? Because she enrolled in the Welfare-to-Work program when it was still going strong. Through that program she began to realize how she could mold herself into the person she wanted to be, despite the hand that life had dealt her.

This woman still has not been able to go to college. She desperately wants to but she cannot qualify for loans because of her bad credit and other sources of funding are in short supply.

FYI, JWithers, the man who coined the phrase "God helps those who help themselves" did not believe in God's constant involvement in our lives. The Bible tells a very different story - one of humility, compassion and sacrifice even for the most wretched and undeserving of us.

[JWithers]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I'm going to post this story again because it is valuable:


This woman still has not been able to go to college. She desperately wants to but she cannot qualify for loans because of her bad credit and other sources of funding are in short supply.

FYI, JWithers, the man who coined the phrase "God helps those who help themselves" did not believe in God's constant involvement in our lives. The Bible tells a very different story - one of humility, compassion and sacrifice even for the most wretched and undeserving of us.

Jeni.

If we all got what we truly deserved we would all be in hell. I thank my God every day for His grace and mercy and for the sarifice of Jesus Christ, that we need not pay the sins of for our evil hearts , but rather are forgiven through Him.

And I am still not going to buy the argument that education is out of reach. I know too many people who have done it despite the roadblocks.

Again, and I am so tired of repeating this. I am not advocating the starvation and annihilation of poor people. I am not suggesting cutting off food stamps. I do not hate poor people, nor do I hold them in contempt. What I do find odious is people who blame others for their problems.

I did not have internet when I applied for my grants and scholarships. I called for forms, filled them out and mailed them in. You can still do that. Lack of internet is not an excuse. Good gravy, people- If you want to help people, you must teach them to be self-sufficient.

You can keep digging for excuses why people won't do for themselves but I'm not buying it. I did it. Every bit of it, With NO, did I say NO, help from anyone. I was smart enough for college, so I was smart enough to go through the drill.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by JWithers

You can keep digging for excuses why people won't do for themselves but I'm not buying it. I did it. Every bit of it, With NO, did I say NO, help from anyone. I was smart enough for college, so I was smart enough to go through the drill.

Didn't you say in another post that you asked your guidance counselors at high school? Sounds like getting help from someone else to me...