Beta back at USC and Miami (FL)

[Coramoor]

Rastaone I sucks that you guys are dealing with this, but time will work things out.

My advice is to make sure that guys that do want to be social, have fun, meet girls, etc get put into key positions. Chiefly Recruitment Chair, Pledge Master, and Social Chair.

Those positions will allow you to pick the men you want, teach them how they should conduct themselves, and have good times that will create experiences you will remember forever.

It's unfortunate that some people think that alcohol and social conduct don't work...I don't know what the hell those kids are going to do in the real world. Every job I've had (since I was 16) threw parties and had massive amounts of alcohol. Now I'm in the military and in Germany...let's just say that if I didn't not learn how to conduct myself around alcohol I'd be extremely embarrassed by now. Those kids are really hurting themselves in the long run.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by rastaone

thanks a lot guys for the great responses. as far as advisers are concerned, i for one know that i cannot talk about alcohol at all when certain advisers are around, even if its just about a party over the weekend. ive talked to many of my brothers as well as several advisers, and they believe that within the vision and goals and whatever of MOP, you should not drink (responsible social conduct and some other stuff?). i had an adviser tell me that i need to work on my image, which should not include alcohol, even if i am not getting drunk.

That is ridiculous. This is a social fraternity, not a monastery. This is part of growing up and a place to make life friends- not a place to be told what to do and managed to such a degree as you report.

MPI (MOP as you call it) says nothing about not drinking, nor does it put brothers or advisors in the position to make moral judgments about other members over choices of lifestyle and personal conduct within what society deems acceptable.

As ZZ kai said, there are dry Beta houses- but that is not a requirement of MPI and it is a completely separate issue. That kind of decision comes from a chapter and or the alumni who buy/manage the house- it does not come from MPI or General Fraternity. Some houses are even substance free which means no tobacco use either. But again, this is not an MPI issue.

I really hope you guys can find a way to have some honest discussions with your advisors- but they need to take the first step to even let you feel comfortable talking openly. Otherwise you have no incentive to work with them and then they become useless- like another set of parents you don't need.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by Coramoor

It's unfortunate that some people think that alcohol and social conduct don't work...I don't know what the hell those kids are going to do in the real world. Every job I've had (since I was 16) threw parties and had massive amounts of alcohol. Now I'm in the military and in Germany...let's just say that if I didn't not learn how to conduct myself around alcohol I'd be extremely embarrassed by now. Those kids are really hurting themselves in the long run.

An excellent point- and there is ample scientific research on the different attitudes about exposing the young to alcohol at the dinner table in the US vs. Europe which supports what you are saying.

[furmanbeta]

Dry House sucks. MOP sucks. Having overbearing advisers and the AO looking over your shoulder perpetually, sucks. Yeah, you need to do what you can to start these guys off in the right direction, but in the end, you've got to let them choose their own course. There's nowhere near enough trust in the undergrads these days.

[Coramoor]

True...also look at the men they have as consultants.

They are not bad guys...but I wouldn't consider them leaders by any stretch of the imagination. When I was active, they were often my age (maybe even younger?) and....intimidated by the brothers of my chapter.

If you just listened to them it was ok, but when you started asking questions they quickly became nervous, flushed, stuttering, etc.

I think that Beta needs to reach out to older alumni to be consultants etc. Men that have some experience under their belt instead of a just graduated young person. Although it is much easier to brainwash young people...

[BigRedBeta]

Agreed with ZZ.

MOP isn't the cause of the problems - at least not directly. My chapter (Nebraska) has a dry house, but we still party with the best of them (at least in comparison to the other chapters on our campus - maybe not in comparison to some chapters at other schools). We just didn't do it in our house. It made for a cleaner place, and kinda segregated work and play. When I finally moved out of the house a senior, there were a lot of days I wasted because the night before I'd get back from the bars or a party and start drinking more. I didn't have that problem while living in...(I just got fat b/c there was poptarts and cereal to eat whenever that I didn't have to buy).

I think where MOP has gotten colonies into trouble is just like what's been described at USC - there's a certain contingent that gets drawn to Beta because they interepret dry house to mean no alcohol at all. That's a misinterpretation on their part and one that the AO doesn't put any effort into explicitly stating one way or the other, leaving everyone unsure. Perhaps that's part of the plan - to allow the chapter to decide what it means. But of course that requires a lot of discussion/debate, and probably some bruised egos. We had one pledge who quit because he had been under the impression that no one in our house drank (despite our advertising of a BADD program), needless to say he got a rude awakening his first night in the house, and even managed to hang on for about a month before he finally had enough.

I also agree with what's been said that once a chapter is established, many of the problems and infighting goes away. Sure there are always disagreement about the exact direction a decision should go, and there are often times groups of people who end up at each other's throats constantly during chapter (in my chapter it used to fall down pledge class lines - odd years vs. even years in a lot of cases). But once chapter was over, a lot of those issues got left there, and that's one thing I'd really encourage - don't make things personal and don't carry them to outside venues.

I do think it's incredibly lame that people, pledge brothers, judge you b/c you drink. That's ridiculous and completely inappropriate. If they didn't want to associate with people that drank, they shouldn't have joined a fraternity or plan on getting any sort of job other than some religious post (although I have a great-uncle who's a priest who drinks like a fish...).

[a.e.B.O.T.]

Originally Posted by rastaone

ive talked to many of my brothers as well as several advisers, and they believe that within the vision and goals and whatever of MOP, you should not drink (responsible social conduct and some other stuff?).

When I was a starting founding father we had a lot of problems with the brotherhood aspect because of diversity and differences in opinions on alcohol, MOP translation, and etc... It was so bad, Mike Wolfard TOLD us to get drink together, lol.

The fact that they use "Responsible Social Conduct" as a means to say no alcohol is funny. Almost all social conduct in college is alcohol related, so if they meant no drinking, they should of put "No Social Conduct," lol.

Drinking is fine, as long as it it responsible, even under age. I dont think you drinking a couple beers is going to hurt betas image. However, getting shit faced drunk and running through the campus butt naked will hurt betas image (i learned the hard way!!!). So keep that in mind. Of course, the code of Beta HAS to say that it does not encourage underage drinking, and that makes total sense, cause, well its the law.

On the issue of campus image, this is a tricky thing that only time will heal. First thing, never complain about Beta to ANYONE outside of beta. Not even your closes friends, because if a conversation comes up about beta or fraternities, they may not say what you said, but their attitude in the discussion will reflect what you said. I found that was the key thing on our campus, b/c we had the same reputation at first. Talk positive about all the greeks outside your beta circle, and encourage your other bros to do so as well. Secondly, for those you think are social akward, take them on as your little project. This was the same case for our chapter two. Go with those guys to parties, encourage them to liven up (of course dont get them trashed). However, get them talking, as your friends to talk to them. Even if you dont want to be seen in public with them, inviting them over to your room for like a game of beer pong or kings helps (yes, those are drinking games, which also arnt condoned, but are good social lubricants for the socially akward)

[Coramoor]

The good thing about frats is that reputations can change quickly.

Sororities aren't so lucky, once they have a negative reputation it's damn near impossible to shake-on the flip side those with a good reputation attract the girls that will keep that reputation good.

Frats can change their rep almost over night. All it takes is one or two outstanding pledge classes and you are in the game.

[Coramoor]

Man...all I'll say is that it will work itself out.

Even if it's only a few of you that like to party and have fun, you will be the ones that run the chapter because you will be more well known in sororities and other frats. The new guys will look up to you b/c you will be the guys that introduces them to girls, go out with them to parties, and generally have a good time.

Pledging will get harder over the course of a few semesters, once some of this MOP brainwashing has had a chance to leak away.

It will all be good. Just make sure that you have a hand in recruitment!

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by rastaone

the problem is that when the beta expansion team was recruiting here, they stressed that they were looking for "fraternity men" and not "frat boys." the difference being that "fraternity men" followed the vision/goals/etc of MOP, which made them DIFFERENT from every other frat.

This is the part I don't understand.

I drank like crazy at times in college- especially when I lived in the house. And we tore things up and stole stuff from other fraternities and ripped buses to shreds on road trips etc.

But I also spent many hours working on philanthropy events, finished a pretty tough undergrad degree and went right through to the MBA program with no work experience, played designated driver in the house a lot, held office every semester (Pledge Class President and then various chapter offices after) and today I enjoy an active role in an advisory capacity which has been more fun and rewarding than I could ever imagine.

So under MPI as it is envisioned by some, does all of that go away because I liked to party balls a time or two a week when I was an active?

This is what concerns me and makes me wary of how MPI has been implemented. The concept itself is very sound and a smart idea both internally and externally, but it certainly has taken some ugly turns.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by rastaone

oh and i have tried to include the socially awkward guys in our events or even small things at our apartments. the thing is, they tend to look down on alcohol and actually talk shit about make sarcastic remarks about us when we drink. they actually feel that alcohol is a BAD thing, which i dont understand at all

Why do they think it is bad? Because they have true convictions about it or because they have social hangups? I suspect the latter based on what you are saying.

Man, you might want to take this to an Eye. I hate beating around the bush- serves no purpose- and my suggestion would be you bring this up and just let the chapter have it out and let everyone make their views clear, and why they feel that way.

Best part is that anyone who does not have a legitimate viewpoint they can defend will be pushed into a more passive state if you approach them head-on. And that will mean you have less trouble in future in your efforts to help build the chapter.

[EE-BO]

One more thing, when I was an active there was at least 1 or 2 non-drinkers in every pledge class and it never created any kind of issues. You don't have to drink to enjoy being in a fraternity- but you do have to avoid pushing your personal lifestyle choices on others.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

Ok, you had me until now.

First off, can you please refrain from the word "frat." We are fraternity. "Frat" has animal house implecations, which is not what Beta is about. We are about having a good time, but you said it your self

Originally Posted by rastaone

and i too love to drink and party. its pretty much what im known for in the frat. however, i am also very dedicated to brotherhood and moving forward. i am trying to prove to everyone that you can drink and still participate in philanthropies, organize events, and be responsible all at the time same time.

You are a man after my own heart in this respect. I used to be told the EXACT same thing in the eye (too honest and too much drinking). However, we are not a "frat," because we have a fraternal purpose and a 3,7 value system. We dont just through toga parties and pass out on the Chapter House porch.

If someone is against drinking, you should support them in that. Yeah, its annoying, but your views are probably just as annoying to them. It is what they value, and that is what you value. This doesn't mean you have to bow down to him, just respect him for it. He is telling you his values and being open and honest with how it bugs you. You should be the same. I don't know your age, but I am going to assume its under 21, which means they probably value the law, and if you get caught you not only have your ass on the line, but the name of Beta. Also, alcohol screw with the way you act and think, and people have issues with abusing your senses like that. So, I can see where they are coming from and if those are imortant to them, well man, it is just the way its got to be

Where is gets an issue, is where they try to actually stop you, threaten to kick you out or send you to kai just for consuming alcohol. Then you got to fight it. If you fight before this happens, well they are just going to get upset with you and you don't have a justified reason for it. They are entitled their anti-alcohol opinion as much as you are entitled your pro-alcohol opinion.

On the issue of you complaining about your brothers having no "lady skills," well, I am revealing some of the ritual here: I don't think that being a mac daddy is a requirement to join beta! Do people still say mac daddy? However, being rude def. falls under "unbeta-like" behavior. Call him out in chapter. Let him know that he is rude. Remind him when he is in private, so he sees it and starts to realize what he is doing. Most likely he doesnt.

Secondly, and you might gasp at this one, but some of the guys might not have social skills because, well, they are gay. Keep an open mind here, but as a founding father myself, and a frequent visit of leadership institutes and convention, I speak with many F.F. all the time, and it seems that having multiple gay members is more relevant in the F.F. process due to the type of selection, and how different style of recruitment. It is easier to go to non-undergrads sitting at a table in the student hall, then going to a chapter house of peers during rush. Since they don't know you that long, I mean, you've only been in Beta since fall, they may not feel comfortable around it. Especially, around those who reflect a more "frat" type image, like you and I, who like to drink and party.

I am not saying all those guys are gay, or even most. What I am saying is you need to be careful when you try to "pimpify" them with the ladies, because you might push a sensitive button for a couple of them. I sound totally lame here, but I'm serious.

The best thing you can do is just hang out with these guys. If you hang out with them one on one, and then a couple of people, and then a party, they will graduately get used to you, and the people around you, and ultimately your lady friends. That is how it worked for me. I was a sore thumb in that chapter, and today my eyes consist of "Dude, I am sorry I misjudged you in the begining, your cool and fun to hang out with, and now that I know you I appreciate your honesty."

Did I make any sense in my essay here? I dont know, let me know!

[a.e.B.O.T.]

Well, as a FF, you were thrown onto these guys. So, it takes time, really does. It took us about a year and a half to start getting comfortable... some of the older guys just need to graduate off, etc...

I am positive that as big as USC is, that there are more gay in fraternities then you know about!!!

[ECUJacob]

i find myself not wanting to hang out with many of the guys in the frat...a number larger than id like it to be. you might say im in the wrong frat then, but there is a large group of people i do like, so i dont necessarily think i made a bad choice by joining beta (one of the advisers told me that if i dont like as many people as i counted off to him, i shouldnt even be in beta). should i force myself to hang out with these guys i dont really care to talk to, or just hope for the best and wait it out?

Any chapter is going to have groups of people who spend more time with one another. Our chapter has 20 guys and there are still cliques. My only advice to them has been for them to spend time with whomever they choose, but to also make a concerted effort to spend quality time with other guys also. You never who you might connect with while having a quick drink or meal.