Bad teachers or the system

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

We have a large number of teachers here on Greekchat, so hopefully we can draw some out here . . . unfortunately, I think my points won't really resonate well with them. That's fine - tell me where I'm wrong and we'll go from there.

First, I feel like most complaints I hear about NCLB are both baseless and misdirected. Forcing teacher (and student) accountability is not a problem in and of itself - and while there are certainly some well-documented issues with standardized testing, no one will disagree that there should be some measurement of success on the part of both the student and the teacher.

Second, teachers probably do not get enough support - but that support must come from the school and administration. Parents are not always a reliable source of educational support, and this is not a new phenomenon.

Third, teachers may be slightly underpaid, but it is not an endemic problem - however, we can't have it both ways. By this I mean that if we pay teachers like insurance adjusters, we should expect the quality of college grad that becomes a teacher to approximately equal that of an insurance adjuster. Most MENSA candidates can find much more lucrative employment than teaching - it's a catch-22. At no point in past history were teachers paid the same as doctors, lawyers, or CEOs - to pretend otherwise is insane. Also, teaching is not a 12-month-a-year job for the overwhelming majority of teachers, no matter how much planning time you require personally - this has to be considered. I'm sorry, teachers, but it does.

I would argue that the largest problem with our current school system setup is that it is top-heavy - there are too many superfluous administrators, and they are largely inept at dealing with actual problems. It is a sea of red tape and middle management, with very little of this time or money filtering to the teachers (and thus students).

School funding is not as much of a problem as school spending.

This is similar to problems with failing companies in the private sector - there are entire industries dedicated to consulting and saving these types of companies. There are methods and lessons out there.

NCLB is not the problem.

NCLB may not be the problem. But, it is not the solution that its backers made it out to be. Yes, my students who just moved here a year ago are going to take the tests. Do my students have the 'social' language skills? For the most part, yes. Do they have the 'academic' language? No, they are still working on their academic language. Will I be held accountable by my principal and the district? Yes. It does not matter that they will be broken down statistically. If they fail, that will be averaged in, no matter what.

PS - lol - I replied to all of your points. For some reason they did not stay in between the quotes. I will re-state my positions later.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

NCLB may not be the problem. But, it is not the solution that its backers made it out to be. Yes, my students who just moved here a year ago are going to take the tests. Do my students have the 'social' language skills? For the most part, yes. Do they have the 'academic' language? No, they are still working on their academic language. Will I be held accountable by my principal and the district? Yes. It does not matter that they will be broken down statistically. If they fail, that will be averaged in, no matter what.

I don't dispute this point - I addressed it in a previous point.

This fits both the "well-documented issues with standardized tests" (as in, problems with non-native/minority populations and test aptitude) and "specific cases" (as per the statistical inclusion).

However, I will reiterate - I see two main issues here: 1) why are there no separate standards for ESL/ELL testing (surely those in special ed are not counted?) and 2) perhaps reevaluating the goal of ESL/ELL classes (that is, what defines functional mastery of English) would be useful, although that utility should be viewed in light of the student (and not the test).

[1908Revelations]

Mastery of English would be wonderful, but like I said for many students speaking English ends at school. So the entire weekend is spent speaking another language and the entire summer. Some of the parents can not speak any English nor do they attend some of the English workshops offered by the district. So if the students and parents do not follow through then mastery of any language will fail.

Correct me if I am worng, but special ed scores are included in many standardized testing (for AYP)? I think they are....I will have to get back to you on that. MzDiscreet where are you ma'am?