Bad teachers or the system

[1908Revelations]

Originally Posted by neosoul

I miss the days when corporal punishment was mandatory in school

My parents didn't need corporal punishment in schools.

ETA
They [My parents] would beat my ass if I showed out period!

[JonInKC]

The teachers that I wanted to spank me never would.

[VAgirl18]

the following is probably going to get me in trouble on here... but here's my OPINION.

the educational system in america needs to be reformed. an education should be available to everyone, but not everyone is meant to go beyond high school. there are too many people that i know who should NEVER have gotten into college. so here's one of my ideas..

have kids decide if they want to go to a trade school or a regular high school. many of the people i know that didn't go to college hated high school and barely made it through. they'd be more successful and useful to society if they'd learned a trade. there are many illegal immigrants doing work in the US because people refuse to take the lower paying jobs and are content living on welfare or off of mommy and daddy. there are jobs available and so many americans refuse to work low paying jobs because they think that its beneath them. what did your parents and grandparents do?? if it were the 1950s and you were able to get a job at the mill for peanuts, you'd be happy.

i'm sure there's more i can say on this, but not without really ranting or anything, so i'll leave it at that.

[Dionysus]

Spankings are overrated and are not the magic bullet like so many people claim. I got MANY as a kid, and I still misbehaved.

[1908Revelations]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Spankings are overrated and are not the magic bullet like so many people claim. I got MANY as a kid, and I still misbehaved.

I don't think spankings are a magic bullet, but parents have to find consequences that work for their child. I didn't get many spnakings, b/c I knew what was expected of me and the consequence I would be choosing should I misbehave.

[KSig RC]

We have a large number of teachers here on Greekchat, so hopefully we can draw some out here . . . unfortunately, I think my points won't really resonate well with them. That's fine - tell me where I'm wrong and we'll go from there.

First, I feel like most complaints I hear about NCLB are both baseless and misdirected. Forcing teacher (and student) accountability is not a problem in and of itself - and while there are certainly some well-documented issues with standardized testing, no one will disagree that there should be some measurement of success on the part of both the student and the teacher.

Second, teachers probably do not get enough support - but that support must come from the school and administration. Parents are not always a reliable source of educational support, and this is not a new phenomenon.

Third, teachers may be slightly underpaid, but it is not an endemic problem - however, we can't have it both ways. By this I mean that if we pay teachers like insurance adjusters, we should expect the quality of college grad that becomes a teacher to approximately equal that of an insurance adjuster. Most MENSA candidates can find much more lucrative employment than teaching - it's a catch-22. At no point in past history were teachers paid the same as doctors, lawyers, or CEOs - to pretend otherwise is insane. Also, teaching is not a 12-month-a-year job for the overwhelming majority of teachers, no matter how much planning time you require personally - this has to be considered. I'm sorry, teachers, but it does.

I would argue that the largest problem with our current school system setup is that it is top-heavy - there are too many superfluous administrators, and they are largely inept at dealing with actual problems. It is a sea of red tape and middle management, with very little of this time or money filtering to the teachers (and thus students).

School funding is not as much of a problem as school spending.

This is similar to problems with failing companies in the private sector - there are entire industries dedicated to consulting and saving these types of companies. There are methods and lessons out there.

NCLB is not the problem.

[1908Revelations]

KSig RC, let me ask what you think about ESL/ELL (English Language Learners) taking standardized test?

The students go to their ESL/ELL classes, but when they take standardized test they are not allowed any help. That is a part of the inclusion of ALL atudents that NCLB brought. Many of the students who would be able to recieve more help in self-contained classrooms are not getting more focused help in the general ed classrooms. These students take the standardized test and often fail them miserably. It is not that the ESL/ELL students are stupid, but they do not understand what is on the test. We can't blame the ESL/ELL teachers b/c the students are only with the teacher for a portion of the day. When they go home they are likely speaking which ever is thier native language, not to mention they are speaking these languages all summer. Many of the ESL/ELL students know functional English which is not good enough for testing. The horrible test scored are factored in with the rest of the school and then some schools can't meet AYP goals.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

We have a large number of teachers here on Greekchat, so hopefully we can draw some out here . . . unfortunately, I think my points won't really resonate well with them. That's fine - tell me where I'm wrong and we'll go from there.

First, I feel like most complaints I hear about NCLB are both baseless and misdirected. Forcing teacher (and student) accountability is not a problem in and of itself - and while there are certainly some well-documented issues with standardized testing, no one will disagree that there should be some measurement of success on the part of both the student and the teacher.

Second, teachers probably do not get enough support - but that support must come from the school and administration. Parents are not always a reliable source of educational support, and this is not a new phenomenon.

Third, teachers may be slightly underpaid, but it is not an endemic problem - however, we can't have it both ways. By this I mean that if we pay teachers like insurance adjusters, we should expect the quality of college grad that becomes a teacher to approximately equal that of an insurance adjuster. Most MENSA candidates can find much more lucrative employment than teaching - it's a catch-22. At no point in past history were teachers paid the same as doctors, lawyers, or CEOs - to pretend otherwise is insane. Also, teaching is not a 12-month-a-year job for the overwhelming majority of teachers, no matter how much planning time you require personally - this has to be considered. I'm sorry, teachers, but it does.

I would argue that the largest problem with our current school system setup is that it is top-heavy - there are too many superfluous administrators, and they are largely inept at dealing with actual problems. It is a sea of red tape and middle management, with very little of this time or money filtering to the teachers (and thus students).

School funding is not as much of a problem as school spending.

This is similar to problems with failing companies in the private sector - there are entire industries dedicated to consulting and saving these types of companies. There are methods and lessons out there.

NCLB is not the problem.

NCLB may not be the problem. But, it is not the solution that its backers made it out to be. Yes, my students who just moved here a year ago are going to take the tests. Do my students have the 'social' language skills? For the most part, yes. Do they have the 'academic' language? No, they are still working on their academic language. Will I be held accountable by my principal and the district? Yes. It does not matter that they will be broken down statistically. If they fail, that will be averaged in, no matter what.

PS - lol - I replied to all of your points. For some reason they did not stay in between the quotes. I will re-state my positions later.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

We have a large number of teachers here on Greekchat, so hopefully we can draw some out here . . . unfortunately, I think my points won't really resonate well with them. That's fine - tell me where I'm wrong and we'll go from there.

First, I feel like most complaints I hear about NCLB are both baseless and misdirected. Forcing teacher (and student) accountability is not a problem in and of itself - and while there are certainly some well-documented issues with standardized testing, no one will disagree that there should be some measurement of success on the part of both the student and the teacher.

Second, teachers probably do not get enough support - but that support must come from the school and administration. Parents are not always a reliable source of educational support, and this is not a new phenomenon.

Third, teachers may be slightly underpaid, but it is not an endemic problem - however, we can't have it both ways. By this I mean that if we pay teachers like insurance adjusters, we should expect the quality of college grad that becomes a teacher to approximately equal that of an insurance adjuster. Most MENSA candidates can find much more lucrative employment than teaching - it's a catch-22. At no point in past history were teachers paid the same as doctors, lawyers, or CEOs - to pretend otherwise is insane. Also, teaching is not a 12-month-a-year job for the overwhelming majority of teachers, no matter how much planning time you require personally - this has to be considered. I'm sorry, teachers, but it does.

I would argue that the largest problem with our current school system setup is that it is top-heavy - there are too many superfluous administrators, and they are largely inept at dealing with actual problems. It is a sea of red tape and middle management, with very little of this time or money filtering to the teachers (and thus students).

School funding is not as much of a problem as school spending.

This is similar to problems with failing companies in the private sector - there are entire industries dedicated to consulting and saving these types of companies. There are methods and lessons out there.

NCLB is not the problem.

Agree completely.

I think bad teachers do scapegoat bad parents, but I still think bad parenting is where it starts. You're right, other sources have as much or more influence, and my response would be, how does that happen? My parents simply wouldn't allow me to get tangled up with bad influences within my peer group. Parents aren't helpless when it comes to what influences their children. They probably do seek out other influences, especially when their parents are completely irresponsible and never around.

[1908Revelations]

I somewhat agree with you on the fact about trade schools. Where I seem to have an issue with that is, we start HS at the age of 14 or 15. I don't think 14 year olds should make a decision saying, "I know I'm not going to college, so I want to focus on a trade not academics." Then 2 or 3 years down the line they want to attend college, they will not have a strong academic basis. I do think that traditional HS (academics based) should still be first, however the electives should be revamped to focus on a trade for those who choose to do so. My HS (years before I attended) had a computer programming elective which students were allowed to progress and get certifications (like A++) granted they passed the test, but they still had academics.

[AchtungBaby80]

Originally Posted by 1908Revelations

I somewhat agree with you on the fact about trade schools. Where I seem to have an issue with that is, we start HS at the age of 14 or 15. I don't think 14 year olds should make a decision saying, "I know I'm not going to college, so I want to focus on a trade not academics."

I've been saying for years that there should be an 'academic' high school for kids who are preparing for college, and more of a vocational-type high school for kids who will most likely end up working straight out of school. I agree that allowing (or even asking) a 14 or 15-year-old to map out his/her future is a little unrealistic; that's why I like the way the French do it. They take tests going into high school. If you pass the test, you go to the academic high school. If you don't, well, then you go learn a trade. I know, I know, some people don't test well, yada yada yada, but the way I understand it (I had several French friends growing up), the test has both a written and oral part, so if you suck at written tests you still have the chance to redeem yourself. I think it's pretty fair--it weeds out the ones who either aren't serious about academics or just don't have the aptitude for college prep so that nobody's (students or teachers) time is wasted. Sounds harsh, but maybe the time I spent in high school classrooms jaded me a little. I don't expect everyone to agree.

[UGAalum94]

All but the absolutely most disabled do count in the special education numbers. I think the maximum percentage that can be exempted is 2%, so even the vast majority of special education students count in your NCLB test score data. (Although it might seem weird to those of use who are kind of old, at a lot of schools maybe 10% of so of kids might be receiving special eduction services of one kind or another.)

I think that ESOL, ESL student do need to count in the data because otherwise ESL might become an academic dumping ground with no expectation of ESL students really learning, which would be worse in the long run for the kids than failing the tests. I agree that it would make more sense to measure the results of students who haven't yet learned English differently than kids who grew up speaking it. It is a shame that the present testing system expects the same results from kids who don't know English as from those who do. But let's keep in mind that in many states, and the states all came up with their own plans for testing and in many cases their own tests, the level of performance for passing is pretty darn low.

I think that parents do matter a lot, but mainly in terms of what attitudes they show their kids about school and school success and the influence always seem to be greater when what they show is negative. One of the biggest problems when people talk about lack of support is not total apathy; it's that parents actually work at subverting the standards for their kids at the last minute, even at schools where it might be impossible to get a parent on the phone for 95% of the year. Come the last few weeks and their kids being in danger of not passing or not graduating, suddenly, not only are parents involved, they are actively fighting the system. And you see this same dynamic with behavior and discipline problems. People aren't interested in helping back teachers up by dealing with the kids at home in any kind of proactive way, but if the kid is going to gets in really serious trouble with the administration, and suddenly, mom is in everybody's face.

Now, I agree with the above poster that if the school administrators could be counted on to back teachers up academically or in terms of discipline, then the parents wouldn't matter much at school at all. But most administrators seem to get ground down by the parents pretty quick and learn that addressing problems as the teacher's fault is easier, since after all, the teacher works for the administrator.

So if you are a teacher, unless you are a really good school, and/or you have an exceptional strength of character and morality, you too get ground down pretty fast. You, like the kids, learn that the kids pretty much run the place and in some ways certainly the easiest way to think of having a long career is to have ridiculously low expectations and a willingness not to make waves.

I think that's why so many people leave, especially at the bad schools, and then you really do get into a position where things get worse because the school would rather keep someone sincerely bad, as opposed to having no one to teach at all.

[neosoul]

Originally Posted by 1908Revelations

My parents didn't need corporal punishment in schools. They would beat my ass if I showed out period!

that NEVER stopped my mama from bringing out the wooden spoon

Hell forget the woode spoon.....my dad use to make us go pick a tree switch fromt he tree outback ........oh yeah that stung!



It is a little of both. As a parent i can see both sides. back when we were all in school ( 1970's/80s.... ok some of us more than others.....age) yes we had corp punishment to toe the line, but we also had great teachers, awesome adminstrations and PTAs/PTOs that were strong in numbers that supported the schools and the teachers. It also left the teachers able to accomplish one thing......the ability to teach!.

Teachers today are thrown so much crap their way to accomplishment in short amt of time because of all the policy and procedures, mandates and of course we cannot leave out no child let behind ......A teacher with a classroom the size of 25 plus it is hard to accomplish the daily task of teaching effectively. it is hard to blame a teacher when she or he do not recieve the support that truly isn't there.

However, on the flip side we do need to hold them accountable. Classroom management is truly an enviorment thing. I aide in my son Matt's class 1 to 2 times a week and his class is a a big class....24 kids. She knows how to get their attention and hold it and she knows time managment well. It is those teachers who should be commended.

I worry about those teachers who dont have parent support or who do and still dont know how to effectively teach. I am blessed to have a great teacher this yr for my son. a lot of the upper grade teachers are brand new and my concern is how effective are they.