In what circumstances would you support reorganization or closing?

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by ForeverRoses

I remember when I was in college and a sorority decided to close, the remaining "actives" were given alumnae status, however I believe that the national officers that worked on the closing helped the women form into an official "club" on campus. So while they were no longer a member of the WPA (the NPC org on campus), they still had club meetings and had activites as a group. The club ended up disbanding when the last alum graduated. basically they turned into a mini-alumnae chapter (since we were a small college town with no real alumnae chapters within an hour of us).
I was always impressed that the national officers helped them do this, rather than just dropping them cold (as we all know sometimes happens).

In a perfect world, no chapter would ever be closed. Everyone's dues would be paid on time, everyone would be presentable every time she left the house, everyone would show spirit 24/7, no one would ever even dream of hazing, and everyone would have high moral standards.

We don't live there.

Sororities are becoming more of a business - the amount of litigation alone has raised the cost of each chapter & each GLO to almost prohibitive levels. That leaves the GLO putting more stress on each chapter to produce, however that GLO defines it. From what I hear, closing a "weak" chapter and recolonizing is becoming the wave of the future. In regards to DePauw, I'd be interested in knowing if the sorority involved would have lost their charter completely had the entire chapter been given alumnae status, or would the University have allowed the chapter to close and recolonize.

With all of this in mind, I think that the chapter ForeverRoses mentions handled the situation is by far the best I've ever seen or heard. Kudos to whichever GLO was involved in that!

[33girl]

Originally Posted by honeychile

From what I hear, closing a "weak" chapter and recolonizing is becoming the wave of the future.

Doubtful, unless it's a "do or die" sort of school, and as we've seen here, that may not even be worth the effort. I doubt very much that my sorority will ever try an immediate recolonization again unless there are very special circumstances. And now that this practice has been brought to light on a nationwide basis, any group that tries it would just be foolish.

Originally Posted by honeychile

In regards to DePauw, I'd be interested in knowing if the sorority involved would have lost their charter completely had the entire chapter been given alumnae status, or would the University have allowed the chapter to close and recolonize.

I think the university would have allowed a recolonization if it would have happened immediately (i.e. this spring) and if the women would have had their housing question taken care of by the national sorority and the Delta chapter house corp. This whole thing just showed a serious lack of planning.

[Kevin]

Whenever it's in the best interest of the national organization or chapter to close/reorganize, I'm for it.

As to what constitutes that "best interest" standard, I'll know it when I see it.

[FSUZeta]

agdsquirrelgirl gave an example of her campus, where no one is at total, although it appears that most are within ten of total. i would imagine that these chapters are not in trouble with their headquarters membership wise.
have any of these chapters ever been at total-have all of them been at total? it sounds like panhellenic council might want to review the stats in order to answer those questions. the campus may benefit from total being slightly lowered so that at least some of the chapters are at total. why keep a number that noone can reach, just because that is what is has been?

i do have to ask, since the chapters are so near total, why they did not hold an informal recruitment and reach total-especially the chapter who is one below total? out of 59 girls, someone in the chapter has to know a girl on campus who would love to join and would fit in.

there is one chapter on my daughters campus that is below total.the other chapters are way above. they participated in formal recruitment, got what my daughter says is a great pledge class(although they did not pledge quota), but they have not held any informal recruitment events to recruitment more members. they could conceivably reach total if they put forth a major effort , but they don't. while i don't think the chapter deserves to be closed, i think that they might benefit from a visit from a recruitment expert who could help them approach recruitment from a different angle.

i think that people get complacent or don't know how to operate outside the status quo. perhaps our international officers need to look at this and devise a plan and offer training for those chapters who consistently operate below total. the likelihood that the below total chapters will die off at some time significantly increases as the situation persists and the big get bigger while the small get smaller of maintain their small size. it would also behoove each international office to address the situation while the chapters lack a few members to meet total, before the downward spiral begins and playing catchup is almost out of the question.

[Tom Earp]

Many great ideas and posts were mentioned in this thread.

First, the DZ and DePaw situation was a fiasco for DZ and gives a black eye for all greeks looked at by outsiders.

Closing a chapter in a R M situation is often tenious. If a few members haze should the whole chapter be held accountable? No. If it is a continuing situation then should the whole chapter be closed? Yes.

Membership.

Who decides what is the total membership?
Most NIC want to have their chapters at least within 10% of all Greek membership of Fraterities. There has to be some limits as how low you can go as I have been told. (this brings up the reason why).
When visitations to chapters by paid HQ members, it cost the same for a 100 person chapter as it does for a 10 person chapter. So the per cost of getting the bang for the buck is a problem there. Where does a National spend the money to get its best worth? Numbers, yes, of course they are important. But are they that vital unless they are so low as to not be functional?

Money owed to Nationals?

Pay your bills, that is the life blood of any Greek Organization and makes it work!

Get in arrears and get into trouble.

Being a Greek National Organization is a Multi Million Dollar business and needs to be run as such. Each member and chapter is a share holder.

Today, many National Organizations are not flush with deep pockets. They are run on a strict budget and cuts have been coming for all of us.

Is there a difference between NIC and NPC being the two largest of the GLO's and thinking, yes there is. Should there be some change in thinkings, maybe.

Food for thought!

[ForeverRoses]

The sorority I was talking about that turned itself into a club- since I wasn't part of it, I'm not sure if they were an official alumnae association or not, but from a University standpoint, in order to have access to meeting rooms and other resources, they had to be a recognized as a "club" by campus life-- so that's what they were. (as for the policy of joining I believe they were technically open to all, but but who would want to join a club that was for alum XYZ members?)

[FSUZeta]

tom:

"total is the allowable chapter size, as determined by the College Panhellenic, and includes both new members and initiated members," as quoted from the NPC green book. "it is determined after studying the current size of the chapters, the availability of potential members, the expected growth in college enrollment and the most desirable chapter size for the campus."

"total figures should be realistic to result in the majority of chapters reaching total chapter size. if all of the chapters are about the same size, a reasonable Total may be determined by dividing the total number of new members and initiated members by the number of chapters."

"reevaluation of the total chapter size may be desirable when the majority of chapters reach and/or exceed the established total, or when no chapter has reached the established total size in several years."

"RESOLVED, that college panhellenic councils prior to evaluation and/or changing total chapter size consult with the NPC area advisor who shall notify NPC delegates with chapter on the campus of this evaluation."

[ForeverRoses]

Since I have never personally been involved in this, does anyone know of a circumstance where a quick-turnaround reorganization or recolonization actually worked? It would seem to me that if a chapter lost it's charter it would take AT LEAST a year or two to get over the stigma of having lost it's charter (regardless of reason) and then I would think that it would take a major PR effort to get the ball rolling (which I can't see happening if you have disgruntled alum members walking around campus).

In a nutshell, I would think that a group would want to stay off campus for at least 3 years before even attempting to return. But what do I know?

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

tom:

"total is the allowable chapter size, as determined by the College Panhellenic, and includes both new members and initiated members," as quoted from the NPC green book. "it is determined after studying the current size of the chapters, the availability of potential members, the expected growth in college enrollment and the most desirable chapter size for the campus."

"total figures should be realistic to result in the majority of chapters reaching total chapter size. if all of the chapters are about the same size, a reasonable Total may be determined by dividing the total number of new members and initiated members by the number of chapters."

"reevaluation of the total chapter size may be desirable when the majority of chapters reach and/or exceed the established total, or when no chapter has reached the established total size in several years."

"RESOLVED, that college panhellenic councils prior to evaluation and/or changing total chapter size consult with the NPC area advisor who shall notify NPC delegates with chapter on the campus of this evaluation."

Thank you!

The main thing that sticks out with your post is within "reasonable numbers".

According to the last Greek Advisor at my Alma Mater where there are only three Sororities, they were not making quota so therefore no more would be allowed to present to come to campus. We have a campus of @ 6,500 people so there are bodies there fro recruitment.

Maybe that is why this quota thing has always been a problem with me!

[ΑΓΔSquirrelGirl]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

agdsquirrelgirl gave an example of her campus, where no one is at total, although it appears that most are within ten of total. i would imagine that these chapters are not in trouble with their headquarters membership wise.
have any of these chapters ever been at total-have all of them been at total? it sounds like panhellenic council might want to review the stats in order to answer those questions. the campus may benefit from total being slightly lowered so that at least some of the chapters are at total. why keep a number that noone can reach, just because that is what is has been?

That's an issue with Panhellenic, but as far as what I wrote goes, that's the current situation.

i do have to ask, since the chapters are so near total, why they did not hold an informal recruitment and reach total-especially the chapter who is one below total? out of 59 girls, someone in the chapter has to know a girl on campus who would love to join and would fit in.

Maybe I forgot to mention, but I thought I did...all hold COBs in the spring. However, again, retention rates are sometimes an issue...as well as girls that are under hours or are forced to leave.

there is one chapter on my daughters campus that is below total.the other chapters are way above. they participated in formal recruitment, got what my daughter says is a great pledge class(although they did not pledge quota), but they have not held any informal recruitment events to recruitment more members. they could conceivably reach total if they put forth a major effort , but they don't. while i don't think the chapter deserves to be closed, i think that they might benefit from a visit from a recruitment expert who could help them approach recruitment from a different angle.

i think that people get complacent or don't know how to operate outside the status quo. perhaps our international officers need to look at this and devise a plan and offer training for those chapters who consistently operate below total. the likelihood that the below total chapters will die off at some time significantly increases as the situation persists and the big get bigger while the small get smaller of maintain their small size. it would also behoove each international office to address the situation while the chapters lack a few members to meet total, before the downward spiral begins and playing catchup is almost out of the question.

On this campus, it is unlikely the groups will die out any time soon. I was just giving an example of chapters that are small in the first place because of the nature of Greek life here and because of the nature of the campus.
Chapters here endure the strain of year round recruiting...it's not really an issue of being complacent but of the PNM pool.

[FSUZeta]

but if seniors graduate in december or members drop due to hours, or grades or financial reasons and the chapter goes below total, the chapter could pledge new members (up to total) in the spring.

why have pnm numbers declined? has the female enrollment at your college declined?

i am not targeting your campus per se, because as i said i see this at my daughters campus(and other campuses)too. it is tiresome to feel that you are continually planning and holding recruitment events-you get burned out on recruitment. believe me i know! since no one on your campus is at total, it is not as big a deal right now. but i do think that panhellenic should re-evaluate the total figure and possibly lower it.

the chapter i advise went thru cob as a colony and i was with them as an advisor then. they had x amount of girls pledge the colony and our international office wanted us to maintain that number. girls would drop out and we would have to hold a series of recruitment events. they would pledge back up to the number they needed, a few more girls would drop out and we would have to hold some more events. even after the colony was installed as a chapter, they had some girls drop their membership , which put the chapter below total and we had to pledge back up to total. this went on for the first 2 years of their existance, but due to their hard work they have been over total their last two years. they are 4 years old.

now granted, there are only 2 npc sororities on campus and the campus enrollment is growing every year, but fgcu started out as a mainly commuter campus, there is no greek housing or suites or lodges, and both sororities overcame those obstacles. a third sorority will be coming on this fall.

the point i am trying to make is that when sororities first fall below total and do not get back up to total, and this is allowed to continue, they will find themselves falling farther and farther behind in the membership game, while the bigger sororities go that much more over total. then it becomes almost impossible for the smaller chapters to catch up.

[FSUZeta]

wow dee!! i love to hear stories like the osu agds. we alums know how hard it is to restructure/reorganize a chapter successfully-there are so many obstacles to overcome. i hope that they continue their successes!!

good luck to your other chapters(and everyone elses) who are going thru the process right now!

[33girl]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

i am not targeting your campus per se, because as i said i see this at my daughters campus(and other campuses)too. it is tiresome to feel that you are continually planning and holding recruitment events-you get burned out on recruitment. believe me i know! since no one on your campus is at total, it is not as big a deal right now. but i do think that panhellenic should re-evaluate the total figure and possibly lower it.

My campus was much the same way. We had formal in spring and a structured informal in fall. In between times, some of the chapters held open bid parties. We had them about once a month. Usually, the women waited till the next big pledge class to begin pledging (until the dumbass who I referenced in another thread disallowed that).

If you've never done it and you're used to thinking rush = big parties, skits, huge effort, takes up every minute of your time - of course it sounds horrid. COB parties are usually nothing more than a light theme, girls over to the house or suite - kinda like a house party with no boys and no booze. It's NOT the same as formal rush and that is why so many chapters moan and freak out when they're told to do COB. They've never done it and think rush party = all the things above. Part of recruiting rather than rushing means knowing the difference between the two.

At places where there isn't huge Greek interest, it's really the better way to do it, I think - rather than put all your eggs in the formal rush basket. There are women who would be great members who just don't want to go through the hype of formal - not to mention the upperclassmen who know "I want to pledge ABC or nothing" and IMO, they've been there long enough that if that's what they want to do, they should be allowed to do it if the chapter has spots.

I do agree with you that this campus needs to lower total if no one is at it, but I've heard of regional/national officers making a stink about that or saying things like "you don't need to lower total, you just have too many sororities. Get rid of one and you won't have that problem." susan314 also referred to this in her post above.

[ΑΓΔSquirrelGirl]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

but if seniors graduate in december or members drop due to hours, or grades or financial reasons and the chapter goes below total, the chapter could pledge new members (up to total) in the spring.

It's very much easier said than done. The pool of women who are at all interested (or can afford it...very many are on financial aid) is small. Many times during COB all sororities are interested in the same 30 women. I know we all attempt to pull from different areas to avoid this, but it's usually these same 30 or so that end up accepting bids somewhere.

And I think we ALL agree that none of us is willing to take quantity over quality...that has just caused so many problems and so much heartache that we don't.

why have pnm numbers declined? has the female enrollment at your college declined?

Actually freshmen classes have been progressively declining...as I understand it the decline of applicants to both NPC and IFC recruitment/rush has been decreasing accordingly. Only 30-odd guys rushed last fall.

i am not targeting your campus per se, because as i said i see this at my daughters campus(and other campuses)too. it is tiresome to feel that you are continually planning and holding recruitment events-you get burned out on recruitment. believe me i know! since no one on your campus is at total, it is not as big a deal right now. but i do think that panhellenic should re-evaluate the total figure and possibly lower it.

the point i am trying to make is that when sororities first fall below total and do not get back up to total, and this is allowed to continue, they will find themselves falling farther and farther behind in the membership game, while the bigger sororities go that much more over total. then it becomes almost impossible for the smaller chapters to catch up.

Maybe eventually. Right now even those that are very significantly smaller are not in danger of "losing the game". They are very strong chapters with just the women they have right now. There's just not much to be done and we all know it. All our HQ would like us to make total...some are pushy. Some are very, very pushy...but what they sometimes don't realize is if these smaller chapters choose quantity over quality they WILL lose out to the three larger chapters.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Doubtful, unless it's a "do or die" sort of school, and as we've seen here, that may not even be worth the effort. I doubt very much that my sorority will ever try an immediate recolonization again unless there are very special circumstances. And now that this practice has been brought to light on a nationwide basis, any group that tries it would just be foolish.

In this exact way, having a review etc, a GLO would have to be crazy to try that again. To wait until the end of the school year, that would be a different story. I can name at least 5 GLOs who consider that policy.

I think the university would have allowed a recolonization if it would have happened immediately (i.e. this spring) and if the women would have had their housing question taken care of by the national sorority and the Delta chapter house corp. This whole thing just showed a serious lack of planning.

Last year, one of our chapters was closed with a definite recolonization date set, with cooperation of the local Panhellenic. I feel that's the way any chapter closing/recolonization should be handled - unless there's a house or such involved. I honestly don't know how that could/should be handled.

And I agree - this specific example shows a definite lack of planning!