Libby Found Guilty

[agzg]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Absolutely what a waste of time and money. I hope Bush pardons him soon. For him to spend time in jail would be completely absurd.

While I think this whole thing has been a waste of time and money... I want to see at least someone come to justice for this.

Outing Valerie Plame could have gotten her killed, and she definitely can't work in a lot of places because of this. It also could have gotten her agents killed in their home countries - human intelligence is a dirty business, but it's important nonetheless. If we can't protect our assets overseas, especially from being outed by government officials for political reasons, how can we expect or hope that anyone will work with us?

Maybe it's just my somewhat "insider" opinion but compromising clandestine operations for political reasons is completely ridiculous. I'd rather Libby be a drain on tax dollars by being in jail than have other outings like this.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

While I think this whole thing has been a waste of time and money... I want to see at least someone come to justice for this.

Outing Valerie Plame could have gotten her killed, and she definitely can't work in a lot of places because of this. It also could have gotten her agents killed in their home countries - human intelligence is a dirty business, but it's important nonetheless. If we can't protect our assets overseas, especially from being outed by government officials for political reasons, how can we expect or hope that anyone will work with us?

Maybe it's just my somewhat "insider" opinion but compromising clandestine operations for political reasons is completely ridiculous. I'd rather Libby be a drain on tax dollars by being in jail than have other outings like this.

1) No proof she was "outed" for political reasons, 2) very sketchy as to her covert status, with CIA officials saying it was highly unlikely she would have gone back overseas at the time of the "outing" 3) I'm still troubled by the aspect that people investigating on behalf of the government took it upon themselves to undermine their own government's foreign policy decisions. The politics in this situation do not just extend to what happened with the VP's office.

[agzg]

1. She should not have been outed period. Political, non-political, it still compromised the cases she was working on when she was overseas. Counterintelligence is a nastier business than clandestine operations. If counter-intel officials overseas could place people with her, no matter how long ago, they would come under investigation for espionage. The punishment for espionage in most other countries is execution (for treason). Here, it wavers between life in prison and the death penalty.

2. CIA officials will say anything to get people out of their business. It's highly common to see people doing a "home tour" at HQ or people that are home indefinitely to get put on a TDY tour if they're the person that best fits the job. People that are supposed to be on a home tour for two years have been sent back out within weeks of the start of their tour. While they say it's "highly unlikely," there's no such thing as that amount of certainty until a clandestine officer retires completely. And while she may not have been part of a covert operation at the time, she has been part of several covert operations that were all compromised by her outing. If she'd been retired for quite some time, it wouldn't be that big a deal, but she was not retired. Many clandestine officers have published memoirs, but any recent memoir on recent operations have huge redacted portions that compromise missions if they're published.

3. The politics of all of this is astounding, I agree with you on that. I think had there not been as much media attention, they'd be able to salvage some of the relationships with assets overseas. They've undermined CIA operations, the safety of assets and field officers alike, the government's foreign policy decisions (whether or not you or I as citizens agree with them is an entirely different thread), the legitimacy of the VP's office as traditionally NOT a place of leaks (traditionally, Congress is seen as the main source of leaks)... and so on. It's really sickening.

That doesn't mean that I don't want to see someone come to justice for it all.

[shinerbock]

I fully agree that we should protect our agents. I think it was a mistake to let the leak get out. However, Fitzgerald couldn't get anything substantive. I'm not trying to be dismissive of the magnitude involved with revealing an agent's cover, but what we seem to be dealing with is a lapse in judgment that thankfully resulted in little harm. If it turns out that there was a political vendetta against Wilson, I'm with you that everyone involved should pay. However, the only obvious spite I see is the hatred the Wilson's had for the administration.

Unfortunately, as we can all agree, this "scandal" took a political turn. The left isn't pissed off because the VP's office made a mistake and outted an agent, they're upset because they outted a liberal agent who's husband was railing against the administration.

I don't agree that Libby should pay dearly for this. Here's a guy who has devoted himself to public service and got caught up in a situation handled poorly on all sides. I'm not taking a no harm-no foul position, but prison would be ridiculous in my opinion.

I still don't understand why there wasn't more focus on other figures, like Armitage. I guess he's not connected enough to feed the beast in this instance.

[agzg]

Armitage, I agree, should be facing much much much much more than he has in this issue. In my opinion, he's the true snake, whether or not he was "told to" by other people - it's like when an officer in the military tells an enlistedman to do something that is WRONG - the military expects the enlistedman not to follow the order.

I'm not pissed on the left side, right side, up side, down side... Wilson's "hatred" for the administration is his political opinion... none of my beezwax as far as I'm concerned. But... Novak's column was a response to Wilson's Op-Ed piece. Retaliation.

I'm sure there's a lot more harm to it than what we know without access to classified information - she was, after all, part of the counter-proliferation operation in regard to Iraq.

Fitzgerald got caught up in the legaleese of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act... Was she living overseas for 6 years? Was she working overseas and living at home for 6 years? Was it within 5 years?

Too many questions to go that route... in fact, I'd think it'd be very hard to get someone convicted that way. That's one of those things where it's gotta be the exactly right case to get someone convicted - the law is written in such a way that allows a lot of reasonable doubt because it's just too damned confusing.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Armitage, I agree, should be facing much much much much more than he has in this issue. In my opinion, he's the true snake, whether or not he was "told to" by other people - it's like when an officer in the military tells an enlistedman to do something that is WRONG - the military expects the enlistedman not to follow the order.

I'm not pissed on the left side, right side, up side, down side... Wilson's "hatred" for the administration is his political opinion... none of my beezwax as far as I'm concerned. But... Novak's column was a response to Wilson's Op-Ed piece. Retaliation.

I'm sure there's a lot more harm to it than what we know without access to classified information - she was, after all, part of the counter-proliferation operation in regard to Iraq.

Fitzgerald got caught up in the legaleese of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act... Was she living overseas for 6 years? Was she working overseas and living at home for 6 years? Was it within 5 years?

Too many questions to go that route... in fact, I'd think it'd be very hard to get someone convicted that way. That's one of those things where it's gotta be the exactly right case to get someone convicted - the law is written in such a way that allows a lot of reasonable doubt because it's just too damned confusing.

I completely understand what you're saying with that, but IMO going after Libby serves no genuine purpose. Novaks column was returning fire against Wilson, but how that came about will probably always be unclear. I don't care what Wilson's opinion is, but when a liberal uses information gained in a governmental capacity to enact an agenda, I think people have a right to be concerned. Of course theres nothing for him to get in legal trouble for, but it annoys me that people are acting like he's just some innocent governmental actor who got worked over because he didn't side with the administration.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I completely understand what you're saying with that, but IMO going after Libby serves no genuine purpose. Novaks column was returning fire against Wilson, but how that came about will probably always be unclear. I don't care what Wilson's opinion is, but when a liberal uses information gained in a governmental capacity to enact an agenda, I think people have a right to be concerned. Of course theres nothing for him to get in legal trouble for, but it annoys me that people are acting like he's just some innocent governmental actor who got worked over because he didn't side with the administration.

The reason they've gone after Libby is that Libby knew that Plame was a covert agent, and, while Armitage's comments were published first, he did reveal her to Judith Miller just days later. If we're going for legality in regard to the Intelligence Identity Protection Act, the one thing it is clear on is knowingly revealing the identity. Armitage, according to what he's said about it, which isn't much, knew that she worked for the CIA, but did not know that she was a clandestine officer, much less that she was on non-official cover (meaning she did not have diplomatic immunity and, if caught, would face espionage charges in whatever country she happened to be operating).

In my mind, Plame should never have been involved with Wilson. Her connection with him compromised her cover and opened her up for outing from political opponents, etc. He never should have EVER EVER mentioned his trip to Africa - he had as heavy a hand in outing her as many others in this case, IMO.

For the movie - they say that the stars in consideration for it are Richard Gere and Sharon Stone. Stone I can see - Plame's a pretty blonde, Stone's a pretty blonde... ok... But Richard Gere? Come on. Wilson is not, nor will he ever be, nor has he ever been, as attractive as Richard Gere.

I mean, Chris Cooper doesn't look like Robert Hanssen either, and O'Neil definitely doesn't look like Ryan Phillipe, but even considering Wilson to be anywhere on par with Richard Gere is offending to this Gere fan!

[KillarneyRose]

Totally irrelevant but somewhat interesting:

Valerie Plame is a Pi Phi from Penn State.