Politics 2008:The Caucuses and The Dem/Rep Conventions

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by litAKAtor

Correction . . . The Federal authorities have dealt with a major catastrophic event like Katrina, i.e. Hurricane Andrew. THousands of people displaced and homeless and the response was immediate. With Katrina we are almost two years after the event, and you still have displaced people. The issue with Katrina was beyond one of race- it was a socioeconomic issue as well. It is easy to pass the buck re: the issues with who dropped the ball . .the mayor, the govenor, the fed. government. The bottom line is the reason the destruction occurred in NO had NOTHING to do with the Mayor's late mandatory evacuation. The destrucion in NO was because the levy's broke . .the levy's broke because the FEDERAL government refused to supply the Army Corp of Engineers the necessary resources to adequately build the levy's to withstand Cat. 3 storms, no less Cat 5! Moreover, Bush's seemingly SLOW response to the devestation in that area reeks of classism and racism - regardless of whether folks want to believe that. As the Chief Executive Officer of this country Bush had the authority to speed FEMA reaction time up - he had the authority to take necessary measure to ensure that AMERICA people weren't dying on the street and were treated with the dignity and respect they deserved. Bottom line he failed at doing his job - executing the laws to protect the citizens he is supposed to respresent. . . .any attempts to justify his behavior regarding Katrina or any other decision he has made in the 7 years he has ruined this country are incredulous.

At this point, any platform in '08 is better than the crap we've been dealing with since January '01!!

I disagree completely. First response is always local, and it should be. Of course federal response plays a role, but its up to the local and state governments to provide initial relief. You're right that Nagin had nothing to do with destruction, but it probably did have something to do with the loss of life. I think you had a good thing going for a minute, it was an absolute disaster. By disaster, I mean one caused by nature, not one that should be blamed on the President. It didn't reek of classism and racism. You know why it was different than Andrew? Because people in Andrew got out. They didn't stay in the area. They also had insurance. They didn't depend on the government to save them, and that idea served them well.

Could FEMA have done better in Katrina? I sure would like to think so. I'd like to think we could always do better. My problem is when people like yourself blame the federal government for the results of a national disaster. The government is not everyone's problem solver. At some point people have to take responsibility for themselves and for their families. You mentioned people dying on the streets, WHY WERE THEY STILL THERE? I absolutely agree that the federal government should help Americans, but it sickens me when people demand assistance instead of helping themselves.

I doubt you want to discuss the policy of the current administration with me, but if you do I'd be glad to. However, seeing as this isn't a forum for that, we should probably take it elsewhere.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by litAKAtor

The bottom line is the reason the destruction occurred in NO had NOTHING to do with the Mayor's late mandatory evacuation. The destrucion in NO was because the levy's broke . .the levy's broke because the FEDERAL government refused to supply the Army Corp of Engineers the necessary resources to adequately build the levy's to withstand Cat. 3 storms, no less Cat 5! Moreover, Bush's seemingly SLOW response to the devestation in that area reeks of classism and racism - regardless of whether folks want to believe that. As the Chief Executive Officer of this country Bush had the authority to speed FEMA reaction time up - he had the authority to take necessary measure to ensure that AMERICA people weren't dying on the street and were treated with the dignity and respect they deserved. Bottom line he failed at doing his job - executing the laws to protect the citizens he is supposed to respresent. . . .any attempts to justify his behavior regarding Katrina or any other decision he has made in the 7 years he has ruined this country are incredulous.

At this point, any platform in '08 is better than the crap we've been dealing with since January '01!!

Originally Posted by shinerbock

It didn't reek of classism and racism. You know why it was different than Andrew? Because people in Andrew got out. They didn't stay in the area. They also had insurance. They didn't depend on the government to save them, and that idea served them well.

Could FEMA have done better in Katrina? I sure would like to think so. I'd like to think we could always do better. My problem is when people like yourself blame the federal government for the results of a national disaster. The government is not everyone's problem solver. At some point people have to take responsibility for themselves and for their families. You mentioned people dying on the streets, WHY WERE THEY STILL THERE? I absolutely agree that the federal government should help Americans, but it sickens me when people demand assistance instead of helping themselves.

LitAKAtor and Shinerbock, you both make very good points on this issue, and I would be remiss if I didn't put my 2 cents in before we jump back to the '08 elections.

The way I see it, the federal government was without a doubt negligent by constructing poorly designed levees, especially considering Holland has far superior levees to withstand storms of that magnitude. Because of this, at least IMO, the government should've had a backup plan already in place in case circumstances such as Katrina ever occured. It was clearly evident that they did not, hence all the post-storm footage that bombarded our TV screens and streaming video files. As for the point that this negligence reeks of classism and racism, that matter debateable.

Shinerbock, I do agree with you in the sense that the lower classes and minorities need to stop relying on the government to save them every time they are in a jam (obviously my Libertarian beliefs talking here), I have to side with LitAKAtor in the sense that because the government contributed to this disaster by not taking pre-emptive measures with the levees, they should have proactive moved much more quickly by taking action and at least making an honest effort on saving lives.

By the same token(s), Nagin should have issued a mandatory evacuation much much sooner than he did, and the citizens should have at least made an effort to evacuate when the word first got out that a Level 5 hurricane was approaching.

So AFAIC, the blame can be evenly distributed among Bush, FEMA, the City of New Orleans government, and its citizens alike. I don't feel that Bush and FEMA are solely responsible for this disaster and the City of New Orleans is absolved from any sense of responsibility.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by litAKAtor

The bottom line is the reason the destruction occurred in NO had NOTHING to do with the Mayor's late mandatory evacuation. The destrucion in NO was because the levy's broke . .the levy's broke because the FEDERAL government refused to supply the Army Corp of Engineers the necessary resources to adequately build the levy's to withstand Cat. 3 storms, no less Cat 5! Moreover, Bush's seemingly SLOW response to the devestation in that area reeks of classism and racism - regardless of whether folks want to believe that. As the Chief Executive Officer of this country Bush had the authority to speed FEMA reaction time up - he had the authority to take necessary measure to ensure that AMERICA people weren't dying on the street and were treated with the dignity and respect they deserved. Bottom line he failed at doing his job - executing the laws to protect the citizens he is supposed to respresent. . . .any attempts to justify his behavior regarding Katrina or any other decision he has made in the 7 years he has ruined this country are incredulous.

At this point, any platform in '08 is better than the crap we've been dealing with since January '01!!

Originally Posted by shinerbock

It didn't reek of classism and racism. You know why it was different than Andrew? Because people in Andrew got out. They didn't stay in the area. They also had insurance. They didn't depend on the government to save them, and that idea served them well.

Could FEMA have done better in Katrina? I sure would like to think so. I'd like to think we could always do better. My problem is when people like yourself blame the federal government for the results of a national disaster. The government is not everyone's problem solver. At some point people have to take responsibility for themselves and for their families. You mentioned people dying on the streets, WHY WERE THEY STILL THERE? I absolutely agree that the federal government should help Americans, but it sickens me when people demand assistance instead of helping themselves.

LitAKAtor and Shinerbock, you both make very good points on this issue, and I would be remiss if I didn't put my 2 cents in before we jump back to the '08 elections.

The way I see it, the federal government was without a doubt negligent by constructing poorly designed levees, especially considering Holland has far superior levees to withstand storms of that magnitude. Because of this, at least IMO, the government should've had a backup plan already in place in case circumstances such as Katrina ever occured. It was clearly evident that they did not, hence all the post-storm footage that bombarded our TV screens and streaming video files. As for the point that this negligence reeks of classism and racism, that matter is highly debateable.

Shinerbock, I do agree with you in the sense that the lower classes and minorities need to stop relying on the government to save them every time they are in a jam (obviously my Libertarian beliefs talking here), I have to side with LitAKAtor in the sense that because the government contributed to this disaster by not taking pre-emptive measures with the levees, they should have proactively moved much more quickly by taking action and at least making an honest effort on saving lives.

By the same token(s), Nagin should have issued a mandatory evacuation much much sooner than he did, and more citizens should have at least made a diligent effort to evacuate when the word first got out that a Level 5 hurricane was approaching.

So AFAIC, the blame can be evenly distributed among Bush, FEMA, the City of New Orleans government, and its citizens alike. I don't feel that Bush and FEMA are solely responsible for this disaster and the City and citizens of New Orleans should be absolved from any sense of responsibility or accountability.

[shinerbock]

I agree. I don't at all mind the idea of using this disaster to better prepare for the next. I do have a problem when people think the government should shoulder much of the blame. I absolutely agree the government should have taken care of the levees and been better prepared for this type of situation. On the other hand, people living in NO should have known the risk posed by living in a city with such vulnerabilities. I think a lot more would get accomplished if people would begin to take more responsibility for their own lives and families. Rather than using problems with Katrina as a campaign issue and accusing the government of being run by bigots, working together to ensure that we're better prepared for the next one would be of much more value.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I agree. I don't at all mind the idea of using this disaster to better prepare for the next. I do have a problem when people think the government should shoulder much of the blame. I absolutely agree the government should have taken care of the levees and been better prepared for this type of situation. On the other hand, people living in NO should have known the risk posed by living in a city with such vulnerabilities. I think a lot more would get accomplished if people would begin to take more responsibility for their own lives and families. Rather than using problems with Katrina as a campaign issue and accusing the government of being run by bigots, working together to ensure that we're better prepared for the next one would be of much more value.

Shinerbock, while some of us may not see eye to eye with you, FWIW, I like the way you think and your reasoning behind it.

Please keep posting, and I'll keep reading

(now back to our regularly scheduled thread)

[litAKAtor]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I doubt you want to discuss the policy of the current administration with me, but if you do I'd be glad to. However, seeing as this isn't a forum for that, we should probably take it elsewhere.

Why would you doubt that? While I do not agree with 99% of Bush's policies because I believe they adversely affect "minorities" and poor people and favor those of the "majority" and the have's, I am always open to a healthy debate about issues . . and I totally disagree with you and KAP's perspective on Katrina (and for the record I am not absolving Nagin of total responsibilty - but local government relies on Fed agencies, particularly in the case of hurricanes - to predict the path of those storms. and Trust - I was in Andrew - I KNOW that everyone did not leave, I know that people were homeless and without food and electricty, however the economic situations of the people affected in Katrina and Andrew were different - but irrespective of that - the response from the Government SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME!) - but that is the topic for another forum . . .

Sorry Mods.