Hip Hop: Poison or Art?

[StarFish106]

In reading this post it made me re-read an interview done with Wynton Marsalis in the Sunday Inquirer regarding his newest work From the Plantation to the Penitentiary. Although he has no love for Hip-hop, there is a part of the interview that actually makes sense in today's music world.

an excerpt:

"Q: The title song on From the Plantation to the Penitentiary paints a grim picture. "From the yassuh boss to the ghetto minstrelsy... from the stock in slaves, to the booming prison trade." Do you think that American culture - and black culture - is at a crisis point?

A: Yes. But if you asked me that in 1985, when we recorded Black Codes (From the Underground), I would have said yeah then, too.
I can remember being on the bandstand with my brother [Branford] when I was 15 and he was 16, playing some song like "Shake Your Booty," or "Play That Funky Music." And I said to him, "This is the dumbest [stuff] ever. I don't think it can get any stupider than this!"
He looked at me, and deadpanned: "It can, and it will." He was like: "This [stuff] is nothing. You only think this is dumb. Just wait." I'll never forget how he told me that. Ha!
If you asked anybody who was black in the 1970s that was listening to Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, if there was going to be a type of music coming along that calls people n*****s - we would never have believed it. No way. After the Civil Rights movement? C'mon! So what he said was truly prophetic. We saw it happen.

Q: Why do you think it happened?

A: I think there are a myriad of reasons. First, there's a belief in the generation gap. Second is the exploitation of kids. When you're exploiting people, and exploiting their sexuality, you have to find new ways to continue to do that...
The third thing is the traditional American relationship with the minstrel show. Black people acting the fool. Always, there's some money to be made off of that. It's comfortable to the national psyche. And also black people's enjoyment of that - for taking what is serious and reducing it to entertainment, which is the same thing that happened with religious music. And it starts with the whole belief in youth music, and the separation of the 14-year-old from their parents."

I grew up listening to Stevie and Marvin and can understand what he meant by this statement. Even though it is reflective of today's culture to say these things rap music nowadays seems to have no point/purpose. Artists want to get paid and this mess that is on the radio is what sells nowadays. Big labels don't want to promote the positive rap (a la De La, Common, etc). They don't care. Now that they have finally seen the the #'s and the influence that rap has, it's about making as much out of it as possible. So the alternative rap artists remain somewhat 'underground' if you will.

In watching the Independent Lens show a few weeks ago there was a group of men outside the Hip Hop Summit in NY freestyling. One of them did 18 bars and it wasn't about killing, booty shaking or any of what is out there. It was good but even he knew that is not what folks want to hear and what sells.

There are still small pockets of resistance (as I call them) and I do try to listen to their music more (if it's good). But I do listen to Jazz, classical and other genres of music more nowadays. I am getting older so my tastes are changing and that is a good thing because it means I am growing within myself. But I look at lot of today's music as disposable-it won't last for the long haul.

I wouldn't call all of it poison just as i wouldn't call it all art either. Most of it is nonsense and I just choose not to waste my money or time on it.

Long Live the Kane!

[delph998]

Acedawg, you hit it on the nail. I enjoyed reading that post.

[DSTCHAOS]

Art.

[dzdst796]

Hip Hop is ART!!
All of this disecting going on about the culture and its music is just people with too much time on their hands.
People make conscious decisions to do the things that they do. To blame any genre of music for someone's illegal activities is just using it as a scape goat. If someone commits a crime they were more than likely going to do it regardless of any lyrics they heard in a song.
Just my thoughts. I am from the hip hop generation and I love it.
"Let's Take It Back To The Old School, Let's Take It To Union Square...."

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by dzdst796

Hip Hop is ART!!
All of this disecting going on about the culture and its music is just people with too much time on their hands.
People make conscious decisions to do the things that they do. To blame any genre of music for someone's illegal activities is just using it as a scape goat. If someone commits a crime they were more than likely going to do it regardless of any lyrics they heard in a song.
Just my thoughts. I am from the hip hop generation and I love it.
"Let's Take It Back To The Old School, Let's Take It To Union Square...."

I hear ya girl!!!

Folks also forget that hip hop's origins weren't as socially progressive and intense as people try to make it. The Sugar Hill Gang? Not even rappers and their rhymes were fluff. Hip hop was a call and response party thing--DJs were hip hop and then "emcees" picked up microphones and moved the crowd. All of this happened before Afrika Bambata called it "hip hop" and Kurtis Blow rhymed about the ghetto.

Mysogyny and negative images in hip hop began in the 80s. There weren't the same type of video girls and raunchy lyrics but when you allow a little bit, a lot is soon to follow. I still remember how Shaba Ranks' "Trailer Load of Girls'" video with KRS-One was cool back in the 90's. That was all the precursor for what we are seeing now.

[MzDoctaKay]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Folks also forget that hip hop's origins weren't as socially progressive and intense as people try to make it. The Sugar Hill Gang? Not even rappers and their rhymes were fluff. Hip hop was a call and response party thing--DJs were hip hop and then "emcees" picked up microphones and moved the crowd. All of this happened before Afrika Bambata called it "hip hop" and Kurtis Blow rhymed about the ghetto.

You're absolutely right.... and New Yorkers, although appreciative of the Sugar Hill Gang, often clowned them because the SHG was from New Jersey... and those in the Bronx (NY) felt that the SHG was only able to put on vinyl what the pioneering Bronx and uptown rappers had already been doing for years.....

Be that as it may, in the end we were just happy to hear our art form on the radio station... No one was looking to be paid big money - the fame from being played was enough.

Good point, Chaos.

[Krisco]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I hear ya girl!!!

Folks also forget that hip hop's origins weren't as socially progressive and intense as people try to make it. The Sugar Hill Gang? Not even rappers and their rhymes were fluff. Hip hop was a call and response party thing--DJs were hip hop and then "emcees" picked up microphones and moved the crowd. All of this happened before Afrika Bambata called it "hip hop" and Kurtis Blow rhymed about the ghetto.

Mysogyny and negative images in hip hop began in the 80s. There weren't the same type of video girls and raunchy lyrics but when you allow a little bit, a lot is soon to follow. I still remember how Shaba Ranks' "Trailer Load of Girls'" video with KRS-One was cool back in the 90's. That was all the precursor for what we are seeing now.

Thank You! The mysoginistic and negative images are definitely not just recent, they are just more widely accepted and commonly seen. And in no way were most of the lyrics socially uplifiting, please! I listened to rap tough in the 80's and the 90's it was headed downhill long ago. Still like to bump some of it though...

[MzDoctaKay]

Originally Posted by dzdst796

Hip Hop is ART!!
All of this disecting going on about the culture and its music is just people with too much time on their hands.
People make conscious decisions to do the things that they do. To blame any genre of music for someone's illegal activities is just using it as a scape goat. If someone commits a crime they were more than likely going to do it regardless of any lyrics they heard in a song.
Just my thoughts. I am from the hip hop generation and I love it.
"Let's Take It Back To The Old School, Let's Take It To Union Square...."

Another Hip Hopper? Tell me: What's in your CD Cartridge right now?

[dzdst796]

Originally Posted by MzDoctaKay

Another Hip Hopper? Tell me: What's in your CD Cartridge right now?

I actually have Mary J. in my car at the moment, but I bought LL Cool J for the song with J.Lo because of the use of the sample from "Looking for the Perfect Beat". So when I need a little pick me up I play that track.
When I have a message on my phone the song it plays is "Scorpio"-Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five. I can I keep my "Hip-Hopper" pass?

[MzDoctaKay]

Originally Posted by dzdst796

I actually have Mary J. in my car at the moment, but I bought LL Cool J for the song with J.Lo because of the use of the sample from "Looking for the Perfect Beat". So when I need a little pick me up I play that track.
When I have a message on my phone the song it plays is "Scorpio"-Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five. I can I keep my "Hip-Hopper" pass?

I was a little shaky when you said J.Lo....but when you mentioned LL....and went all the way back to Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, I had to give you the All Time Platinum Pass.....

*Handing the Pass to the Soror on my left*

[DST4A00]

Originally Posted by delph998

Acedawg, you hit it on the nail. I enjoyed reading that post.

Your siggy speaks volumes.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by StarFish106

Q: Why do you think it happened?

A: I think there are a myriad of reasons. First, there's a belief in the generation gap. Second is the exploitation of kids. When you're exploiting people, and exploiting their sexuality, you have to find new ways to continue to do that...
The third thing is the traditional American relationship with the minstrel show. Black people acting the fool. Always, there's some money to be made off of that. It's comfortable to the national psyche. And also black people's enjoyment of that - for taking what is serious and reducing it to entertainment, which is the same thing that happened with religious music. And it starts with the whole belief in youth music, and the separation of the 14-year-old from their parents."

This is a provocative thought, hip hop as modern minstrelsy. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

I think that hip hop could be art, but at this point it has become stagnant--this is particularly the case with mainstream stuff that we hear on the radio. Can art emerge from the static, I don't know?

[MzDoctaKay]

Originally Posted by Little32

Can art emerge from the static, I don't know?

If so, who would be responsible? The rapper? Or the industry machine?

[Little32]

Originally Posted by MzDoctaKay

If so, who would be responsible? The rapper? Or the industry machine?

I think that there is culpability on both sides. Of course, industry is primarily concerned with what will sell; it will appeal to the lowest common denominator. On the other hand, there have to be artists that embody or are willing to espouse ideas that are palatable to the LCD--and willing to be exploited--for this type of situation to persist. And as other have said, there is always going to be someone that will sacrifice their artistic integrity and vision for money. So industry and artists are responsible for the stagnation that we see in mainstream rap--I won't call it hip hop.

There are artists out there that continue to create real, thought-provoking music with lyrics and beats that will stand the test of time, as opposed to those songs that are here today, gone tomorrow (To that list, I would add someone like Del). But as with other genres of art, it is rare that those people are widely appreciated in their time.

I guess the other question is how is "art" being defined?

[MzDoctaKay]

Originally Posted by Little32

There are artists out there that continue to create real, thought-provoking music with lyrics and beats that will stand the test of time, as opposed to those songs that are here today, gone tomorrow (To that list, I would add someone like Del). But as with other genres of art, it is rare that those people are widely appreciated in their time. I guess the other question is how is "art" being defined?

You're right to make the distinction between rap and hip hop....I'd describe rap as the audio portion (lyrics...djing...music) of the entire hip hop culture. Although many of us use the two terms interchangably.

As for the definition of art, I'd use Webster's definition: "...the conscious use of skill and creative imagination; or an aesthetic object produced as an artistic effort".