Wal-Mart to use Scheduling-Optimization

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by valkyrie

Well, that's their fault! If they were born into poverty and never got an education and don't know how to succeed and make money, it's their fault!

(LOL that's not my argument, but I'm guessing it's what Kevin would say.)

You aren't far off the mark. How hard is it really to learn how to be a welder? How difficult is it to be a plumber? Even trade schools have financial aid, so the money thing isn't the huge problem you make it out to be. It is still a choice to do poorly in school. There are opportunities for people who want to succeed. Can they piss those opportunities away by building up a criminal record or bad credit? Sure. Those are choices as well though.

If they're ineligible for financial aid because they have a history of not paying their bills.... again, whose fault is that? Wal-Mart's?

Being born into poverty does not preclude one from getting an education. Is that really what you think? It is merely an obstacle that must be overcome in order to succeed.

[amanda6035]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Being born into poverty does not preclude one from getting an education. Is that really what you think? It is merely an obstacle that must be overcome in order to succeed.

Thank you. Exactly my point.

[valkyrie]

I think the reality is probably somewhere between your idea and my idea -- I don't think being born into poverty precludes anyone from getting an education, but I know that being born into poverty creates hardship the likes of which I've never experienced in my relatively privileged life, and there is no way I can understand the struggles faced by people born into poverty/drug addiction/whatever other crappy circumstances people face.

I have a hard time with your statement that it's a "choice" to do poorly in school. I'm willing to agree with that to a certain extent, but not in terms of people who do poorly in school from early childhood -- a child under the age of say, 15 or 16, is not old enough to be independently responsible for his or her behavior to that extent.

Long story short, I don't think you or I are qualified to speak to how hard or easy it is for someone born into poverty to get an education and achieve some measure of financial success in life.

Originally Posted by Kevin

You aren't far off the mark. How hard is it really to learn how to be a welder? How difficult is it to be a plumber? Even trade schools have financial aid, so the money thing isn't the huge problem you make it out to be. It is still a choice to do poorly in school. There are opportunities for people who want to succeed. Can they piss those opportunities away by building up a criminal record or bad credit? Sure. Those are choices as well though.

If they're ineligible for financial aid because they have a history of not paying their bills.... again, whose fault is that? Wal-Mart's?

Being born into poverty does not preclude one from getting an education. Is that really what you think? It is merely an obstacle that must be overcome in order to succeed.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by valkyrie

a child under the age of say, 15 or 16, is not old enough to be independently responsible for his or her behavior to that extent.

As the father of two children under 10, one of whom has ADHD and Asperger's, I would disagree. Many children may have challenges that make it hard for them to "choose" to do well in school, but it has actually been pretty clear to us and to our son's teachers when he is struggling because of his own challenges and when he is choosing not to do well. He may not understand the long-term consequences of such choices, which is why we explain those long-term consequences while imposing short term consequences. It's still his choice to be independently responsible or not.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

As the father of two children under 10, one of whom has ADHD and Asperger's, I would disagree. Many children may have challenges that make it hard for them to "choose" to do well in school, but it has actually been pretty clear to us and to our son's teachers when he is struggling because of his own challenges and when he is choosing not to do well. He may not understand the long-term consequences of such choices, which is why we explain those long-term consequences while imposing short term consequences. It's still his choice to be independently responsible or not.

I think that's valkyrie's point though. Many children (especially those born into poverty) have parents who either don't care enough or themselves don't understand the affect doing poorly in school has on their life to impose short-term consequences and explain the long-term. Darn you responsible parents for actually caring enough about your children to MAKE them make something of themselves. Unfortunately, not everyone has that luxury.

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

As the father of two children under 10, one of whom has ADHD and Asperger's, I would disagree. Many children may have challenges that make it hard for them to "choose" to do well in school, but it has actually been pretty clear to us and to our son's teachers when he is struggling because of his own challenges and when he is choosing not to do well. He may not understand the long-term consequences of such choices, which is why we explain those long-term consequences while imposing short term consequences. It's still his choice to be independently responsible or not.

Even though your kid has obstacles (ADHD and Asperger's) he clearly has good teachers and parents. What about the kid who has ADHD and Asperger's and attends (rarely, nobody cares if he goes) an overcrowded class in a crappy school where teachers don't even notice he's struggling and his mom is a crackhead who has never explained anything to him and rarely provides enough food for him to eat? To argue that this kid is responsible for his decision to do poorly in school implies that he should have some type of built-in adult ability to figure out for himself the consequences of his behavior without an adult to help him learn these things. I think that is unreasonable.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It is still a choice to do poorly in school.

I'm sorry, but I have to call out this statement. I have a friend who busted his ass 3-5 hours a night to make C's. He had a brain tumor that affected his short-term memory as a child, but is mainly of normal intelligence. It's not fair to say that it's a choice to do poorly. I know that just because I didn't study much and got good grades, doesn't mean others got that lucky.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

I'm sorry, but I have to call out this statement. I have a friend who busted his ass 3-5 hours a night to make C's. He had a brain tumor that affected his short-term memory as a child, but is mainly of normal intelligence. It's not fair to say that it's a choice to do poorly. I know that just because I didn't study much and got good grades, doesn't mean others got that lucky.

How about I qualify that and say that absent mental or physical impairment, failure is a choice?

Better?

As for crappy schools, 15-16 Y.O.'s not being responsible for their own actions, I'm sorry, but my personal experience tells otherwise. My wife teaches at a charter school here in OKC which exists solely to help inner-city kids get into college. It's and AVID school if you know what that is. They remediate the kids, then expect them to perform on an AP level. They assist in getting financial aid, etc. They recruit from the worst schools in the city and consistently beat the "prestigious" magnet schools and ALL of the suburban schools on their NCLB test scores.

These are kids from broken, poor homes. Most of them are minorities, many of their parents are addicts. They're good kids who want to do better for themselves. In some cases, they come from great homes. In other cases, not so much -- they just have a lot of personal drive and ambition.

When you say that it's not someone's fault for their own actions, you are simply giving an excuse. For someone with a good brain and a good body, there is no good excuse for failure. None.

[jubilance1922]

Originally Posted by Kevin

How about I qualify that and say that absent mental or physical impairment, failure is a choice?

Better?

As for crappy schools, 15-16 Y.O.'s not being responsible for their own actions, I'm sorry, but my personal experience tells otherwise. My wife teaches at a charter school here in OKC which exists solely to help inner-city kids get into college. It's and AVID school if you know what that is. They remediate the kids, then expect them to perform on an AP level. They assist in getting financial aid, etc. They recruit from the worst schools in the city and consistently beat the "prestigious" magnet schools and ALL of the suburban schools on their NCLB test scores.

These are kids from broken, poor homes. Most of them are minorities, many of their parents are addicts. They're good kids who want to do better for themselves. In some cases, they come from great homes. In other cases, not so much -- they just have a lot of personal drive and ambition.

When you say that it's not someone's fault for their own actions, you are simply giving an excuse. For someone with a good brain and a good body, there is no good excuse for failure. None.

I'm actually an AVID tutor for a middle school in Florida, so I'm very familiar with the program and how it works. Yes, it does help kids who don't have all the advantages that other kids have and it gives them a chance that they made not have had otherwise. But AVID isn't implemented in every school and its only 20 years old. What about all the folks who never got to experience a program such as AVID, or may never get to due to their geographic location?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by jubilance1922

I'm actually an AVID tutor for a middle school in Florida, so I'm very familiar with the program and how it works. Yes, it does help kids who don't have all the advantages that other kids have and it gives them a chance that they made not have had otherwise. But AVID isn't implemented in every school and its only 20 years old. What about all the folks who never got to experience a program such as AVID, or may never get to due to their geographic location?

AVID is only one choice that is available. It's certainly not that novel a concept. It may be a tried and true way for a kid to get his or her life back on track, but kids were and are able to do this without an organized program.

Even so, just about everyplace has charter schools now which offer these kinds of programs, and if they're anything like the charter schools in OKC are, people are not exactly beating down the doors to get in.

In fact, my wife's school, as great as they do, does not even have a full enrollment. Not even close. It would seem that kids would rather stay in the failed inter city schools which have NCLB scores which total up to a full third of what my wife's school scores. It's their choice though.

For what it's worth, I'd give back my GWB tax cuts to see AVID implemented in every school in the country. It's really a terrific program. Education isn't the only solution to poverty, but it's definitely the best.

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It would seem that kids would rather stay in the failed inter city schools which have NCLB scores which total up to a full third of what my wife's school scores. It's their choice though.

Those damn six year olds who don't investigate the quality of their area schools and transfer to the one that will provide the best opportunity for success later in life!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by valkyrie

Those damn six year olds who don't investigate the quality of their area schools and transfer to the one that will provide the best opportunity for success later in life!

Once they're 16, they can do what they want to in that regard. If their parents decide to hold them back, they can always go and become emancipated. I think denial of educational opportunity would be strong grounds for that.

And even after high school, there are community G.E.D. programs, there is financial aid to get into college or trade school.

My point is that unless someone just completely pisses their life away, there are options. Those options may not be as easy and accessible as those which were available to me and probably you, but those things are out there.