Hazing -- Good or bad?

[SigmaPsi_Star]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I don't see any top tier Southern Chapters being listed for closing in any of the threads that I am looking at in Risk Management. I see the likes of Case Western, Central Florida, etc.

I'm not totally sure what being a top tier southern chapter has to do with being a good chapter. Just because you're a huge chapter doesn't mean you're good, just because you have a lot of rich alums doesn't mean you're good, just because you're stupid amounts of proud doesn't mean you're good.

So explain to me what good means, first of all, and why it can only happen in the south.

Call me biased (because in this situation, I am) but there are some really great chapters at Case Western. Not great in numbers (I think our largest sorority is at something kind of like 55-60 (cap is 50), and the largest fraternity is at something like 60-70), a lot of us do have very wealthy alums, but that doesn't make us great either.

What makes a great chapter? IMO, a great chapter is a chapter of members who are not defined by their membership, but who help define their chapter. It's one where the members feel a strong bond to their brothers/sisters and feel at "home" in the house, and that they have a strong support system to help them reach their goals both while they're in undergrad, and once they graduate, and where they know that there are people to help them when things start to fall apart (depression, slip in grades, death in the family, etc). A chapter that knows and respects it's history, and not only knows what the colors and letters mean, and what the aim and motto etc are, but who know what those things mean to them, a chapter where each individual knows exactly what their symbols mean, and exactly what the meaning of those meanings is to them. That is great in my opinion.Chapters where all members are equals, but the elders are respected because they do in fact know more about chapter operations and general facts since they've been around longer. A chapter where no one is afraid to voice their opinion on an issue, or afraid to talk to the right person if they're having trouble. That's what a great chapter is to me.

And you don't get those things, IMO, from making pledges do pushups for being wrong, you don't do that by making them think that they're worthless. True respect and reverence for our organizations cannot be earned by fear, these things are learned by understanding how important the organization you're joining is to the existing members, and how important and usefull and fantastic it can be for you, and they're learned by conversations, and in depth history, and getting to know the pledges during their pledge period. If you make someone afraid, if you tear them apart as I seem to have read somewhere in here is the first step of your process, and then build them back up how think they should be, you wind up with a group of clones, who are afraid to disagree with the chapter, who are afraid to be themselves because, god forbid someone in greek life actually be their own person.

Then again, what do I know right? I'm in a sorority and I'm from the north I must not know anything...right? Wrong. I know only what I have experience with, and don't claim to know anything else, and what I know is that the chapters here that I see that are the "best" chapters IMO, are the ones who teach respect, not fear.

(excuse the rant/rambling, it's late and I've had a bad day)

[robertearlkeen]

We beat our pledges and then laugh about it over a cold beer at the bar.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Well, we've got representatives from SEC schools and Texas here, how many top tier fraternities on those campuses have been kicked off in the last 5 years for hazing. I went to Auburn, our answer is none. A few have been put on social probation over the years, but that is pretty much it.

Kappa Alpha closed its Arkansas chapter for hazing.

Sigma Chi closed its Texas chapter for hazing.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

Kappa Alpha closed its Arkansas chapter for hazing.

Sigma Chi closed its Texas chapter for hazing.

Oklahoma closed its Sigma Chi chapter for hazing, Beta at Oklahoma State did the same to its chapter a few years back. Sigma Nu was also closed for hazing at Arkansas for the same reason.

[33girl]

but the question is, are they considered "top tier" chapters on that campus, not necessarily by your HQ?

I'm just trying to save macallan & shinerbock some posts. LOL.

[Kevin]

I know our Vanderbilt chapter was probably a second "tier" chapter when it was active a few years ago. Not sure about Arkansas, but damn do they have money.

As for Beta at OSU a few years back? No question. Top tier.

[Elephant Walk]

Kappa Alpha closed its Arkansas chapter for hazing.

No, KA closed it's chapter because of low numbers. At least that's why they were closed recently. I'm friends with two of their much older members...They were only pulling pledge classes of like 5, if that. There was no hazing involved and they were not a top chapter.

Sigma Nu was closed (as par rumor) for shooting barnyard animals with bow and arrow. At the time they were mediaocre at best, most of the members who were sigma nu's left and joined pike, creating one of the worst chapters on this campus. Anyhow, it's really a non-issue because they're back on campus and making headway because they have a hundred some years of alumni (Tyson and other famous alumns). They won't become top-tier because they're technically so new, but they're trying.

As for Beta at OSU a few years back? No question. Top tier.

Agreed, Beta definitely runs OSU, but OSU is also a midwestern school, not southern.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Agreed, Beta definitely runs OSU, but OSU is also a midwestern school, not southern.

I don't know. You almost have to make that determination on a per-chapter basis. Visit Edmond, OK sometime (a lot of OSU kids come from there). I was raised there, my folks still live there. Depending on what neighborhood you were from, southern type traditions were either pervasive or non-existent. Eastern and Southern OK are also very southern in culture, so it all depends. I'd say that OSU is sort of a mix of a southern and a midwestern school. I couldn't tell you which one of the two I'd call Beta. You could probably apply those midwestern/southern designations on a per-chapter basis.

I don't think you could make a good argument for not calling the OSU KAs a "southern" chapter.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Oklahoma closed its Sigma Chi chapter for hazing, Beta at Oklahoma State did the same to its chapter a few years back. Sigma Nu was also closed for hazing at Arkansas for the same reason.

The sad incident at Oklahoma that caused us to lose our chapter was not hazing. It was investigated by Headquarters and the University. Both determined that hazing was not a factor.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by 33girl

but the question is, are they considered "top tier" chapters on that campus, not necessarily by your HQ

The only place I've ever heard about "tiers" in the Greek System is on these pages from a few folks who may take their own PR a little too seriously.

I Googled top tier fraternity, and, not surprisingly, the references came back to GC -- to this forum. What a surprise. I have not looked at all of the organization web pages, but I have a lot and none I've read refers any kind of national or international tiers. Nor do I see groups broken down by tiers by NIC. A couple talk about top tier chapters within their fraternity. That's up to them to decide, but it means nothing in the context of any given campus.

We've had this discussion before, but one more time I think this kind of arrogance is disrespectful to Greek Systems not in the South. There are great ones elsewhere and outstanding chapters as well.

To use a term I heard during Operation Desert Storm from General Schwartzkopf, this tier thing is a load of Bovine Scatology.

[33girl]

DA, you have read enough of my posts to know I don't agree with this whole "tier" business, just trying to head off the inevitable comment/question when the inevitable posters return to the thread.

Duh.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by 33girl

DA, you have read enough of my posts to know I don't agree with this whole "tier" business, just trying to head off the inevitable comment/question when the inevitable posters return to the thread.

Duh.

Yeah, I know. I should have explained that because I quoted you. The quote was just a vehicle to write about the subject.

We agree.

[shinerbock]

Yeah, "top tier" is a myth. All fraternities are equal. We're all good in our own unique way. [enter other complete horse&%$# here].

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

The only place I've ever heard about "tiers" in the Greek System is on these pages from a few folks who may take their own PR a little too seriously.

I Googled top tier fraternity, and, not surprisingly, the references came back to GC -- to this forum. What a surprise. I have not looked at all of the organization web pages, but I have a lot and none I've read refers any kind of national or international tiers. Nor do I see groups broken down by tiers by NIC. A couple talk about top tier chapters within their fraternity. That's up to them to decide, but it means nothing in the context of any given campus.

We've had this discussion before, but one more time I think this kind of arrogance is disrespectful to Greek Systems not in the South. There are great ones elsewhere and outstanding chapters as well.

To use a term I heard during Operation Desert Storm from General Schwartzkopf, this tier thing is a load of Bovine Scatology.

Yes......because all of the chapters are the exact same and all are good in their cute little own ways. You can think what ever you want.......but the fact is.......there are chapters that are far superior to others nationally and there are chapters that are better than one another on different campuses.

[SigmaPsi_Star]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Yeah, "top tier" is a myth. All fraternities are equal. We're all good in our own unique way. [enter other complete horse&%$# here].

I don't know that anyone was saying that all fraternities on all campuses were completely equal. Some chapters may have better numbers, or be more popular on some campuses, some chapters may even have better numbers and be one of national's "favorites" (nationals are a subject I know little about seeing as I'm a member of a local, but I suppose it's possible for the national organization to have at least a slight preferance to specific chapters). However, "top tier" implies that there is some set ranking system and that there is a universally agreed upon definition of what makes a "good" chapter. The point is that "good" , and "top tier" are rather subjective terms, what works for you might not work for someone else, and your definition of a "great" chapter may well be far different from anyone elses (and that doesn't just mean different from how people in the north think or how "liberals" think. There are probably people on your campus, guys you lived in the same building as your freshmen year, people you have class with etc. who don't see things the way you do, and who wouldn't want to join a chapter that you think is "good"). Just because you think something is "good" or "top tier" doesn't make it true.