Teen Lesbian kills mother of three in suicide attempt

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by cutie_cat_4ever

But nonetheless...I don't understand why people suicide, especially with such silly things like this. If you have the courage to suicide, then why not have the courage to face it?

Because suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness and cowardice - they don't have the courage to face their problems, and they think that the world they live in revolves around them. (this would be the Catholic in me speaking I guess)

It is very rare that you can label suicide courageous, or even noble - and those examples standout because they break the mold because of their altruistic and/or courageous nature.

[laylo]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Because suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness and cowardice - they don't have the courage to face their problems, and they think that the world they live in revolves around them.

Have you ever been severely clinically depressed? I agree that it is certainly not a courageous act, but this is a hugely overly simplistic assessment. Often suicide is about trying for years and years to "face their problems" without having the psychological tools to do so, and eventually coming to genuinely believe things cannot get better. Many also believe that they are nothing but a burden on their loved ones (particularly the elderly, who have the highest suicide rates). I know I'm off-topic now, but I had to comment.

[shinerbock]

I actually agree with RA here, suicide makes me angry, especially for the person that has to find them. This girl, I imagine, probably made a fairly rash decision to commit suicide...she was texting, which leads me to think maybe something set her off. I doubt she's guilty of malice, but stupidity should be enough.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by laylo

Have you ever been severely clinically depressed? I agree that it is certainly not a courageous act, but this is a hugely overly simplistic assessment. Often suicide is about trying for years and years to "face their problems" without having the psychological tools to do so, and eventually coming to genuinely believe things cannot get better. Many also believe that they are nothing but a burden on their loved ones (particularly the elderly, who have the highest suicide rates). I know I'm off-topic now, but I had to comment.

Yes I have been severly depressed, back in the mid-90s following my UN deployment in Yugoslavia - it is but another aspect of PTSD.... and I still suffer from bouts of mild depression as a result of my CFS. That being said I still stick to my statement that suicide is the cowards way out.

[shinerbock]

She's being charged with felony murder, which depending on state law, allows for a charge of murder when a death incurs during the commission of a felony. The felony here is assault with a motor vehicle, I believe. She intentionally swerved into traffic, or so they're saying.

[Jimmy Choo]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

She's being charged with felony murder, which depending on state law, allows for a charge of murder when a death incurs during the commission of a felony. The felony here is assault with a motor vehicle, I believe. She intentionally swerved into traffic, or so they're saying.

Thanks! Like I said, I'm not one of the many lawyers or law students here on GC so I was kind of confused on how they arrived at murder. I always thought murder had to involve intent to harm that particular person. Since she didn't intend to kill that woman just herself I was kinda stunned with a murder charge.

[laylo]

Hopelessness and cowardice are simply not the same. When I was suicidal I was not afraid of my life or my problems. I couldn't be afraid of what I was already experiencing and had been experiencing for years. But I had tried to get help in every avenue possible and I wasn't getting it. Had I gotten help I would have gladly tried anything.

[cutie_cat_4ever]

Originally Posted by laylo

Hopelessness and cowardice are simply not the same. When I was suicidal I was not afraid of my life or my problems. I couldn't be afraid of what I was already experiencing and had been experiencing for years. But I had tried to get help in every avenue possible and I wasn't getting it. Had I gotten help I would have gladly tried anything.

I guess I could see that hopelessness does drive to suicide. I've heard tons of cases back in asia that families without any income are so desperate that they can't even put a meal on the table. So in the end, they will carbon monoxide the whole family so they don't have to suffer. I heard that was the most peaceful way to die. But it also aches me because it happens so often and there's no way they can get money anywhere...

But going back to this case, I can't really see hopelessness in this girl. It's more like revengence in a sense that if she dies, she hopes that the other girl will regret her entire life for not being with her. I may be wrong though...*shrugs*

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Because suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness and cowardice - they don't have the courage to face their problems, and they think that the world they live in revolves around them. (this would be the Catholic in me speaking I guess)

It is very rare that you can label suicide courageous, or even noble - and those examples standout because they break the mold because of their altruistic and/or courageous nature.

wow...you have no idea what you're talking about

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

wow...you have no idea what you're talking about

Really? and how many people do you know that have committed suicide? How many people have you seen commit suicide?

Out of my troop from Yugoslavia, 4 have committed suicide and one is a vegetable after a failed attempt - do I feel for them? Yes I do, and I visit Andrew twice a year at the veteran's Hospital in Ottawa. However that still doesn't change the fact that I consider their suicide an act of cowardice - they gave up because they were too afraid to go on; they didn't have the courage to keep fighting, the courage to help others going through the same thing, the courage to accept the horrors and move on.

Equally, while in Yugoslavia I saw suicidal acts that were incredibly noble and courageous - but on the whole suicide is the act of a coward, and a quiter.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Really? and how many people do you know that
.........

*pulls up sleeve*

how many others do I know? I'd rather not talk about them, I will let them rest.

so I am weak and a coward? You've only seen the struggle of others, not gone through it yourself. I agree that suicide is pointless (now, I didn't always, obviously) but cowardice? No. Suicide isn't born out of cowardice or fear, usually what feels like a very clear head, and sudden urge to "act now, for good"

I could go on, but I don't feel like it because it's like explaining baseball to someone who has never seen a game. I can tell you all the rules and describe it, but if you've never been there, you just can't know.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

*pulls up sleeve*

how many others do I know? I'd rather not talk about them, I will let them rest.

so I am weak and a coward? You've only seen the struggle of others, not gone through it yourself.

Please see my earlier post about depression - with severe depression suicidal thoughts are pretty much par for the course. And yes, even after having experienced suicidal thoughts I still view those who have attempted suicide as weak, cowardly, and selfish ~ in fact I'd say it was dealing with and working throught the severe depression that strengthen this view.

I agree that suicide is pointless (now, I didn't always, obviously) but cowardice? No. Suicide isn't born out of cowardice or fear, usually what feels like a very clear head, and sudden urge to "act now, for good"

Most people commit suicide because they feel everything is hopeless and they can't go on - they are afraid to face another day... and that to me makes them a coward - no matter how "brave" they were to take a final "for good" act... because even then they are still afraid to face another day, or face up to the consequences of their act.

I could go on, but I don't feel like it because it's like explaining baseball to someone who has never seen a game. I can tell you all the rules and describe it, but if you've never been there, you just can't know.

Again - read my earlier post responding to the question about suffering from depression. Again - I have been there, and I have experienced the creeping and clawing darkness that is depression - I think it takes more courage to face the fears and doubts caused by depression, than it does to eat your gun and effectively hide from them forever.

[RU OX Alum]

sorry to jump to conclusions then...the rest of this is a pm now

[laylo]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Most people commit suicide because they feel everything is hopeless and they can't go on - they are afraid to face another day... and that to me makes them a coward - no matter how "brave" they were to take a final "for good" act... because even then they are still afraid to face another day, or face up to the consequences of their act.

There is a difference between being afraid of something and not seeing a point to it. I can't be afraid of water if I'm already swimming. They know that they can bear their suffering because they are alreay bearing it. But they don't see any purpose or value in continuing the suffer. "I'm too scared to keep going" and "Why keep going?" are two different thoughts.

[AlexMack]

I'm sorry, committing suicide is not 'cowardly'. The guts it takes to make that final decision, to press the blade deeper, to step off the chair, to jump from the platform, to purposely aim towards a tree, to put that barrel in your mouth and pull the trigger? That's unbelievable courage right there.

A courage of a different sort, truly. But still, not cowardly in the sense that you condemn it. Yes I've been suicidal, tried it, and known someone who succeeded.

Personally it makes me really sad that someone felt their only way out from their problems was death. How low must you be? How futile and devastating and miserable must your life be that you wake up each day and can see the tears in every breath you take.

This chick? Doing it for attention, obviously. She's old enough to know that all actions have consequences, and she needs the consequences. I believe she'll get manslaughter first degree, if I'm not mistaken, but I probably am.

RACooper, you know that we normally agree, but let me play the devil's advocate for a moment. The jumpers on 9/11. Cowardly or brave?