The growth of radical Islam

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Kevin, if someone insulted your way of life, your religion, ethnicity, etc. you have the right to speak out against it. Hate speech or the like should no be tolerated, right?

The problem is that these two statement are not necessarily compatible. Of course, if one's way of life, religion, ethnicity, etc., is insulted, one has a right to speak against it. That speech, in my view, does not include death threats.

But if one is going to live in a free society with freedom of speech, at the end of the day, one has to tolerate hate speech (whatever that is -- it seems to me to be a catchall phrase for "speech that offends me" without having any real, objective meaning). Free speech works both ways.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The problem is that these two statement are not necessarily compatible. Of course, if one's way of life, religion, ethnicity, etc., is insulted, one has a right to speak against it. That speech, in my view, does not include death threats.

But if one is going to live in a free society with freedom of speech, at the end of the day, one has to tolerate hate speech (whatever that is -- it seems to me to be a catchall phrase for "speech that offends me" without having any real, objective meaning). Free speech works both ways.

Yeah, this is pretty spot-on.

[shinerbock]

You're telling me ME countries don't sponsor terrorism? Hahaha. This is a joke no? You probably don't think Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

As for the dashboard figure, who cares. People have dashboard J.C.'s and it doesn't bother me. Go ahead. I don't like it, but sure, make a cartoon about Christianity. I'll be upset, but I don't think I'll burn a flag, or kill a nun, or anything like that...

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

As for the dashboard figure, who cares. People have dashboard J.C.'s and it doesn't bother me.

I don't care if it rains of freezes
'Long as I got my Plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car.
Through my trials and tribulations
And my travels through the nations
With my Plastic Jesus I'll go far.

Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus,
Riding on the dashboard of my car
I'm afraid He'll have to go.
His magnets ruin my radio
And if I have a wreck He'll leave a scar.

\musical interlude

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Yeah, this is pretty spot-on.

I'm not that surprised that you agree.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

I'm not that surprised that you agree.

That I agree that the 'downside' of free speech is that you have to tolerate hateful speech as long as it doesn't violate the constitutional freedoms of others?

Yes, that's not surprising at all.

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Yeah, I agree that death threats are very very bad. But uh, that's not the kind I was talking about.

And it's a shame that you can tolerate hate speech. I believe it should never be tolerated.

"Tolerate" in this case refers to the legal right of others to free speech - this is what MysticCat and I are discussing. I actually deleted a post similar to his just to prevent this kind of misunderstanding.

It should not be surprising, therefore, that I support the right of the Muslim community to speak out and protest these kind of characterizations as offensive - in that sense, I don't expect "tolerance" in the sense of non-response or laziness.

You're in law school, no? Seriously - this is a basic tenet of the founding ideals of the US. It sucks because we have to deal with bigoted idiots - but it's FAR better than the alternative, no?

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

That I agree that the 'downside' of free speech is that you have to tolerate hateful speech as long as it doesn't violate the constitutional freedoms of others?

Yes, that's not surprising at all.

You're in law school, no? Seriously - this is a basic tenet of the founding ideals of the US. It sucks because we have to deal with bigoted idiots - but it's FAR better than the alternative, no?

What does law school have anything to do with anything?

If the KKK were in my vicinity preaching hateful speech, I would exercise my right to speak against it. And I will not tolerate it, either.

In any case, I still don't understand what this ex-marine's business venture has to do with radical Islam?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

What does law school have anything to do with anything?

I didn't mean it as any sort of pejorative, just to note that I'm framing this as a 'legal' discussion, and trying to direct you back there.

Originally Posted by _Opi_

If the KKK were in my vicinity preaching hateful speech, I would exercise my right to speak against it. And I will not tolerate it, either.

Again - we're now in a semantic trap where we're using "tolerate" to mean two different things.

Speak against it, but recognize they have the right to say it. That's the entirety of the point MysticCat and I are promoting.

Originally Posted by _Opi_

In any case, I still don't understand what this ex-marine's business venture has to do with radical Islam?

Agreed completely - it's very suspect in this thread.

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I didn't mean it as any sort of pejorative, just to note that I'm framing this as a 'legal' discussion, and trying to direct you back there.



Again - we're now in a semantic trap where we're using "tolerate" to mean two different things.

Speak against it, but recognize they have the right to say it. That's the entirety of the point MysticCat and I are promoting.

I never once suggested that they didnt have rights under free speech legally because I agree.

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The problem is that these two statement are not necessarily compatible. Of course, if one's way of life, religion, ethnicity, etc., is insulted, one has a right to speak against it. That speech, in my view, does not include death threats.

But if one is going to live in a free society with freedom of speech, at the end of the day, one has to tolerate hate speech (whatever that is -- it seems to me to be a catchall phrase for "speech that offends me" without having any real, objective meaning). Free speech works both ways.

Yeah, I agree that death threats are very very bad. But uh, that's not the kind I was talking about.

And it's a shame that you can tolerate hate speech. I believe it should never be tolerated.