GA president assails ban on new frat houses

[elusive47]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

What is UB?

The State University of New York at Buffalo. Commonly referred to as "University at Buffalo" or "UB".

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by Adelphean

While I disagree with what the university is doing, if they own the land, they can ask the houses to leave. We own a house/lodge on campus, but the university owns the land. They want their land back to build a parking garage. So, they gave us money to move and build a house on the new 'Greek Row'. Our university stalled on the development until building costs went from $900,000 to $3millon. Needless to say we are currently still in our same house, in a stale-mate with the university, and have no future plans of building, even though we have already paid a LARGE sum to the (school choosen) architec.

The school officials attempted to push the Greek houses off "their" land at my Alma Mater in NC, as well. However, they never even attempted to offer the houses any money, and somehow, the whole plan didn't happen due to lack of funding. I also know that the president heard a lot about it from well-respected alums who donate money to the school. It really is sad when school admins attempt to shove out Greek houses, particularly when if it weren't for them, their school wouldn't be flourishing or growing at all--the Greeks do the majority of recruiting and leading of campus organizations.

[Jerry NeSmith]

Mr. Jones,
I don't usually jump into these discussions to express my opinion, but I must jump in when someone talks about me, especially when they mislead their readers.

I never said what you have quoted me as saying. I never implied such a thing. I never even thought such a thing. I am positive that everyone on the ACC Planning Commission understands and appreciates the value of the Greek system as a part of the college experience. I am also aware of the good deeds that fraternities and sororities do for our community.

Please refrain from imagining things that I said and then reporting your imagination as facts.

Jerry NeSmith

[brobuzzz]

Mr. Jones,
I don't usually jump into these discussions to express my opinion, but I must jump in when someone talks about me, especially when they mislead their readers.

I never said what you have quoted me as saying. I never implied such a thing. I never even thought such a thing. I am positive that everyone on the ACC Planning Commission understands and appreciates the value of the Greek system as a part of the college experience. I am also aware of the good deeds that fraternities and sororities do for our community.

Please refrain from imagining things that I said and then reporting your imagination as facts.

Jerry NeSmith

Mr. NeSmith, I do not live in Georgia, I do not vote in Athens, and I make no claim to validate what Mr. Jones has previously said about you or your views on anything. However, from my own experience and those related to me (both on this site and elsewhere), for a University to be backing the Greek community the way they seem to be, either the University is doing something completely underhanded or the city has actually wronged the students in some manner. This combined with the (rare) almost favorable media coverage directed at KA and SigNu, it would seem as though the city does not value the Greek community as much as you may like people to think. A few questions, since your position would seem to make you a rather trustworthy source on the matter.

1) Why did the city council hold the hearing on this matter for a time when they knew almost no fraternity members would be present?

2) Under what existing justification does the city council have the right to deny housing to anyone?

Or,

Is the real issue that the council likes to say that they appreciate the Greek community as long as the Greek community is restircted to the area already under control of the University?

[ElectChuckJones]

Planning Commissioner NeSmith:

I distinctly recall your comments at the April 6, 2006 meeting of the Planning Commission at which you railed at some length that fraternities and sororities have no place in a community, that they add nothing to a community, that they bring no benefit to a community. Members of a Planning Commission are not people whose names one typically remembers; I remember your name because even among the anti-Greek comments from that meeting, I was startled by what I perceived as very vitriolic comments from you. That's why I remembered your name. I respectfully stand by my recollection of the comments of that evening.

If you have a different recollection, please feel free to share it with me by e-mail at chuck@electchuckjones.com.

Is the real issue that the council likes to say that they appreciate the Greek community as long as the Greek community is restircted to the area already under control of the University?

I think this is precisely it. At the recent Mayor and Commission meeting, the Mayor sternly criticized Gwendolyn Boone ("notyouraverage"), a young woman of great class who bravely came forward in an overwhelmingly hostile room to express her opinion to her elected officials, as she had every right and responsibility to do. The Mayor said that the issue had nothing to do with appreciating the Greek community.

Sure, the Mayor and the Commission appreciate the Greek community, they just spit in the Greeks' face every chance they get. But that doesn't mean they don't APPRECIATE the Greeks and appreciate the good work that they do. Right??

At what point does the greek community take this approach to convincing people we don't ruin everything. Just throw up our hands and say, "Fine, we wont help you anymore." I think it'd take about a semester for people to like us.

Unfortunately, I think that's what it will take. The sad thing is that it is really the people who need help who will be suffering. It is not Planning Commissioner NeSmith who will be suffering when Greeks in Athens declare a moratorium on philanthropy. But if the people in a community are not going to appreciate you (or are going to "appreciate" you but continue to spit in your face), there are plenty of other needy communities who would be very glad to benefit from your generosity.

[notyouraverage]

Thanks for your kind words, Charles.

Greeks will never give up on philanthropy, though. No matter how many rights as citizens and voters are taken away, we'll never put our philanthropies "on hold" for a semester, even if to prove a point. The money my chapter raises through AnchorSplash supports schools for children who are visually impaired all over the country, not just in Athens. Those children, and especially the parents of those children, count on us.

What we CAN do, however, is stress to our individual chapters the importance of
1) good neighbor relations. There should never be cause for an independant living on "Greek Row" to stand up against greeks. We can do this by informing our neighbors before we hold large parties, by keeping our lawn immaculate (though on Milledge, I hardly think this is a problem) and by making cleanup after gamedays immediate - we could even invite neighbors to our barbeques.
2) lifetime membership. I was heartbroken at that meeting when so many of our civic leaders felt it would make me feel better by saying "I was in a fraternity in college." I'm sure they were, but they clearly missed the point that membership is for lifetime. We all know about the astounding percentage of greeks that hold office, but what good does that do when they "were greek in college" not greek for life? So impress on your collegiate members that their duty to their greek brothers and sisters does not end when they receive a diploma. I would love to see an elected politician say that they are willing to work with greek organizations to train men and women how to be good neighbors rather than kicking them out of the neighborhood.
We are some of the brightest, most active students at our universities. Statistically we have amazing futures full of philanthopic and civic work. We give more money back to our alma maters than any other group and it's about time we start being treated as a treasure rather than trash by both the university and the community.

[EE-BO]

Been following this with interest.

Frankly, I think UGA administration and the student newspaper are far more favorable to the Greek Community than some other institutions. And the Greek Community is widely respected there by non-Greeks, unlike at many schools.

I spent a few quarters at UGA a few years ago when stiffer zoning laws were passed that prevented groups of students from buying homes near campus to share. As I recall the rule stated no more than 3 unrelated persons could share a residence.

For those who have never been there, the Greek Houses and many student apartments occupy a long piece of land just a few blocks wide (and share that with subsidized government housing and business districts.)

The University is on one of the long sides of that area of land, and a very old high end neighborhood is on the other- a neighborhood that has always tolerated Greek and student housing, but has been adamant that it never expand beyond Milledge into the neighborhood.

So Greek Houses have few practical options when it comes to moving and wanting to be in a desireable location- even without what is going on right now.

Upsetting as this all is, I think it is going to be a problem at many schools- though it will take different forms.

West Campus- just West of the University of Texas- is pretty much all privately owned, but it is narrowly confined to about 8 by 10 city blocks.

U. Texas houses only a very small percentage of its students, and so over the years the number of apartment complexes and condos in West Campus has grown each time someone could buy up land and tear down either a small old complex or a Greek house and build a tall residential building.

Just to give you an idea- the one year I lived in West Campus during school and was not in my fraternity house or University Towers, my rent was $1,500 a month! This was 9 years ago and on par with the rent for a Manhattan apartment.

I was driving around West Campus just the other day and more and more apartments are going up.

The bad news here as well is that fraternities are routinely suspended or have their charters revoked for various reasons.

And once that house is gone, they are increasingly being converted into something else far more profitable. With the rise in property values, and the reassessment for property tax purposes every time a sale is made, it is becoming prohibitive for alumni groups to buy what few unoccupied houses remain and ever hope to recoup their investment or even break even. I found a small 10 bedroom house in West Campus for sale the other day on a tiny piece of land. Asking price? $1.1 million. The few big houses with ideal placement on large pieces of land are easily worth $10 million or more at this point.

But you need a good house to revive a fraternity.

So the number of Greek houses is shrinking and we are basically killing ourselves off by virtue of a culture of behavior and university perception that leaves us without allies.

My point is this- what is happening at UGA is far less bad than what is happening elsewhere since at UGA the Greek system has non-Greek allies advocating on their behalf. The solution will surely not be ideal, but at least there will be a solution.

And I would hope Greek Communities at places like U. Texas would look to systems like UGA's to realize how valuable it is when you can point to a strong record of philanthropy and continued chapter operations without serious incidents.

The story at UGA is a very good example of why the whole "old skool" vs. "new skool" argument is quickly becoming irrelevant. Alumni with lots of money is not enough anymore as economic pressures of expanding universities and the "not in my neighborhood" mentality of residents crowds us out.

At many campuses, it is now an issue of survival.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by Jerry NeSmith

Mr. Jones,
I don't usually jump into these discussions to express my opinion, but I must jump in when someone talks about me, especially when they mislead their readers.

I never said what you have quoted me as saying. I never implied such a thing. I never even thought such a thing. I am positive that everyone on the ACC Planning Commission understands and appreciates the value of the Greek system as a part of the college experience. I am also aware of the good deeds that fraternities and sororities do for our community.

Please refrain from imagining things that I said and then reporting your imagination as facts.

Jerry NeSmith

Very intersting post with only one post isnt it?

IF it is the true Mr. Smith then it will be looked at as it has and found bogus as it were!

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

Been following this with interest.

Frankly, I think UGA administration and the student newspaper are far more favorable to the Greek Community than some other institutions. And the Greek Community is widely respected there by non-Greeks, unlike at many schools.

I spent a few quarters at UGA a few years ago when stiffer zoning laws were passed that prevented groups of students from buying homes near campus to share. As I recall the rule stated no more than 3 unrelated persons could share a residence.

For those who have never been there, the Greek Houses and many student apartments occupy a long piece of land just a few blocks wide (and share that with subsidized government housing and business districts.)

The University is on one of the long sides of that area of land, and a very old high end neighborhood is on the other- a neighborhood that has always tolerated Greek and student housing, but has been adamant that it never expand beyond Milledge into the neighborhood.

So Greek Houses have few practical options when it comes to moving and wanting to be in a desireable location- even without what is going on right now.

Upsetting as this all is, I think it is going to be a problem at many schools- though it will take different forms.

West Campus- just West of the University of Texas- is pretty much all privately owned, but it is narrowly confined to about 8 by 10 city blocks.

U. Texas houses only a very small percentage of its students, and so over the years the number of apartment complexes and condos in West Campus has grown each time someone could buy up land and tear down either a small old complex or a Greek house and build a tall residential building.

Just to give you an idea- the one year I lived in West Campus during school and was not in my fraternity house or University Towers, my rent was $1,500 a month! This was 9 years ago and on par with the rent for a Manhattan apartment.

I was driving around West Campus just the other day and more and more apartments are going up.

The bad news here as well is that fraternities are routinely suspended or have their charters revoked for various reasons.

And once that house is gone, they are increasingly being converted into something else far more profitable. With the rise in property values, and the reassessment for property tax purposes every time a sale is made, it is becoming prohibitive for alumni groups to buy what few unoccupied houses remain and ever hope to recoup their investment or even break even. I found a small 10 bedroom house in West Campus for sale the other day on a tiny piece of land. Asking price? $1.1 million. The few big houses with ideal placement on large pieces of land are easily worth $10 million or more at this point.

But you need a good house to revive a fraternity.

So the number of Greek houses is shrinking and we are basically killing ourselves off by virtue of a culture of behavior and university perception that leaves us without allies.

My point is this- what is happening at UGA is far less bad than what is happening elsewhere since at UGA the Greek system has non-Greek allies advocating on their behalf. The solution will surely not be ideal, but at least there will be a solution.

And I would hope Greek Communities at places like U. Texas would look to systems like UGA's to realize how valuable it is when you can point to a strong record of philanthropy and continued chapter operations without serious incidents.

The story at UGA is a very good example of why the whole "old skool" vs. "new skool" argument is quickly becoming irrelevant. Alumni with lots of money is not enough anymore as economic pressures of expanding universities and the "not in my neighborhood" mentality of residents crowds us out.

At many campuses, it is now an issue of survival.

While this may seem to be a long post by EE-BB, it is alot truer than many may think!

My College tried to do this at My Alma Mater to get us off of The Main Road which runs in front of campus.

All of the GLO Houses except 2 are on this street with High Profile and they wanted to get us off and in the Boon Docks.

Well, they could not do it as We owned our houses and the cry went out and the lash back was tremendous.

Now, in the case of Ks.Un, the Houses were bought (9) I beleive, and forced by the Un. and Appartments, cheap to say the least were put there!

In the case of William-Jewell on the metro area of KC, the School offered land with one exception, they want to have Houses that were above 1,000,000 $ in a Cul da Sac or there abouts.

It is leased for $1.00 for a long term lease.

In their case, it has worked out nicely.

MTSU-Tenn. has built great Houses, but they are becoming a hardship on the GLOS.


But, it alwys seems that We can be our own worst ememys.

We jsut built a new House, but if there are not enough beds filled or enough Members, they will go by the way side.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

Been following this with interest.

Frankly, I think UGA administration and the student newspaper are far more favorable to the Greek Community than some other institutions. And the Greek Community is widely respected there by non-Greeks, unlike at many schools.

I spent a few quarters at UGA a few years ago when stiffer zoning laws were passed that prevented groups of students from buying homes near campus to share. As I recall the rule stated no more than 3 unrelated persons could share a residence.

For those who have never been there, the Greek Houses and many student apartments occupy a long piece of land just a few blocks wide (and share that with subsidized government housing and business districts.)

The University is on one of the long sides of that area of land, and a very old high end neighborhood is on the other- a neighborhood that has always tolerated Greek and student housing, but has been adamant that it never expand beyond Milledge into the neighborhood.

So Greek Houses have few practical options when it comes to moving and wanting to be in a desireable location- even without what is going on right now.

Upsetting as this all is, I think it is going to be a problem at many schools- though it will take different forms.

West Campus- just West of the University of Texas- is pretty much all privately owned, but it is narrowly confined to about 8 by 10 city blocks.

U. Texas houses only a very small percentage of its students, and so over the years the number of apartment complexes and condos in West Campus has grown each time someone could buy up land and tear down either a small old complex or a Greek house and build a tall residential building.

Just to give you an idea- the one year I lived in West Campus during school and was not in my fraternity house or University Towers, my rent was $1,500 a month! This was 9 years ago and on par with the rent for a Manhattan apartment.

I was driving around West Campus just the other day and more and more apartments are going up.

The bad news here as well is that fraternities are routinely suspended or have their charters revoked for various reasons.

And once that house is gone, they are increasingly being converted into something else far more profitable. With the rise in property values, and the reassessment for property tax purposes every time a sale is made, it is becoming prohibitive for alumni groups to buy what few unoccupied houses remain and ever hope to recoup their investment or even break even. I found a small 10 bedroom house in West Campus for sale the other day on a tiny piece of land. Asking price? $1.1 million. The few big houses with ideal placement on large pieces of land are easily worth $10 million or more at this point.

But you need a good house to revive a fraternity.

So the number of Greek houses is shrinking and we are basically killing ourselves off by virtue of a culture of behavior and university perception that leaves us without allies.

My point is this- what is happening at UGA is far less bad than what is happening elsewhere since at UGA the Greek system has non-Greek allies advocating on their behalf. The solution will surely not be ideal, but at least there will be a solution.

And I would hope Greek Communities at places like U. Texas would look to systems like UGA's to realize how valuable it is when you can point to a strong record of philanthropy and continued chapter operations without serious incidents.

The story at UGA is a very good example of why the whole "old skool" vs. "new skool" argument is quickly becoming irrelevant. Alumni with lots of money is not enough anymore as economic pressures of expanding universities and the "not in my neighborhood" mentality of residents crowds us out.

At many campuses, it is now an issue of survival.

While this may seem to be a long post by EE-BB, it is alot truer than many may think!

My College tried to do this at My Alma Mater to get us off of The Main Road which runs in front of campus.

All of the GLO Houses except 2 are on this street with High Profile and they wanted to get us off and in the Boon Docks.

Well, they could not do it as We owned our houses and the cry went out and the lash back was tremendous.

Now, in the case of Ks.Un, the Houses were bought (9) I beleive, and forced by the Un. and Appartments, cheap to say the least were put there!

In the case of William-Jewell on the metro area of KC, the School offered land with one exception, they want to have Houses that were above 1,000,000 $ in a Cul da Sac or there abouts.

It is leased for $1.00 for a long term lease.

In their case, it has worked out nicely.

MTSU-Tenn. has built great Houses, but they are becoming a hardship on the GLOS.


But, it alwys seems that We can be our own worst ememys.

We just built a new House, but if there are not enough beds filled or enough Members, they will go by the way side.