Israel at War?

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

You can be worried all you want; it's up to you.

You don't know anything until an investigation is complete. The UN which knows more than you and I says they welcome the investigation and Annan accepts that Israel did not deliberately target them. When the facts come out, they'll come out. And I don't know too many UN reports that haven't condemned Israel for something or another so I don't see why they'd stop here.

-Rudey

Ah yes because Israel has never done something like this in the past

Oh wait... that's right the Qana Massacre ten years ago... you know when the IDF shelled a UN outpost harbouring Lebanese civlians fleeing the Israeli retalatory strikes aimed at destroying Hezbollah (hmm deja vu?)... except in this case the IDF shelled the compound with anti-personal artillery shells (proximity fuses) which resulted in the death of 106 civilians and the wounding of 100 more. An investigation was launched into that incident as well... an investigation that concluded it was a deliberate attack...

So pardon me if I don't have any faith in an investigation of the IDF... because I'm sure once again the IDF will quitely protect the war-criminals in its ranks

[shinerbock]

While I agree in part with your statements about the IRA, the idea that that blanketly targeted civilians is false. If by civilians, you mean co-conspirators, informants, etc, then yes, they targeted those. However, it is nothing like these Middle Eastern terror orgs which target people they know nothing about, other than that they are Jewish or Western. If you believe the IRA made regular practice of targeting protestants simply because of their faith, you're again mistaken. While the violence appeared sectarian, and on some level may be, it was not solely due to their faith. It was the simply fact that much of their opposition happened to be protestant. Obviously religion was a dividing line, but there was no desire to destroy all protestants or all of England. I'm sure hatred led few to wish for that, but the efforts did not indicate that, but rather a struggle to be left alone. Also, you pegging me as an IRA apologist is just stupid, as I previously stated I did not condone their tactics, but simply did not fall victim to the propaganda produced by the British government.

Now, regarding Israel...you're right again, much of the middle east conflict is not black/white, but some of it is. Let me ask you this, given your distaste for Israel and your apparent support for their attackers, what would you suggest they do? You mentioned some sort of proportional reaction, is that what you expect? If so, is Israel then not failing to protect its citizens? Should they merely wait for attacks to respond, and have their people live in constant fear? I'm sure there are many, if not a majority, of middle eastern muslims who do not wish for the eradication of Israel and the Jews. However, Israel is threatened by terrorist groups which wish for exactly those things. I think a fundamental disagreement people have regarding this issue involves islam itself. While I believe there are many muslims who are peace loving people, I do not consider the Islamic faith to be peaceful. This isn't to say that violence is the original intent of the faith, but I believe that most involved in the Islamic faith, especially in the region, view Jews as subhuman. I, and others, believe that they(Arabs and Iranians) are taught and fully believe that Jews are their natural enemy. Because of this, many people in the world view the Islamic faith as dangerous, and I think that in today's atmosphere it is. Once again, this is not necc reflective on what the intent of the faith is, but given its leaders and popular sentiment, I believe it to be true. I truly believe that Israel is a country whose sole desire is to be left alone. They have not shown anything to the contrary. They are surrounded by countries who hate them, and are thus placed in the precarious role of protecting its citizens at all times, without rest. Like any violent prolonged situation, there will be incidents where Israel is overly violent or inhumane. However, the large majority of their action is defensive, and if offensive, it is only to protect themselves in the future.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Ah yes because Israel has never done something like this in the past

Oh wait... that's right the Qana Massacre ten years ago... you know when the IDF shelled a UN outpost harbouring Lebanese civlians fleeing the Israeli retalatory strikes aimed at destroying Hezbollah (hmm deja vu?)... except in this case the IDF shelled the compound with anti-personal artillery shells (proximity fuses) which resulted in the death of 106 civilians and the wounding of 100 more. An investigation was launched into that incident as well... an investigation that concluded it was a deliberate attack...

So pardon me if I don't have any faith in an investigation of the IDF... because I'm sure once again the IDF will quitely protect the war-criminals in its ranks

Evidently you not only can't respond to points I make but you also post irrelevant stories.

In 1996 Hezbollah again attacked Israel and murdered and wounded Israelis (more Israeli casualties than Lebanese by the way).

Operation Grapes of Wrath was launched to fire back into Lebanon. After intense shelling from Lebanon, Israel shot back 15 minutes later.

Israel hit around a UN facility where civilians were and some died. Israel apologized. The UN said they cannot rule out the possibility that it was accidental.

The UN should concern itself more with the fact that on their watch, Hezbollah has brought in over 10,000 rockets into the country and is armed better than most military units in the region. They should be concerned with the fact that Israel is not in Lebanon and gets attacked routinely, has its citizens murdered and kidnapped.

Rob perhaps you should start concerning yourself with the Arab terrorists that use civilians as cover, instead of constantly bashing anything having to do with Israel or America.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

Evidently you not only can't respond to points I make but you also post irrelevant stories.

In 1996 Hezbollah again attacked Israel and murdered and wounded Israelis (more Israeli casualties than Lebanese by the way).

Operation Grapes of Wrath was launched to fire back into Lebanon. After intense shelling from Lebanon, Israel shot back 15 minutes later.

Israel hit around a UN facility where civilians were and some died. Israel apologized. The UN said they cannot rule out the possibility that it was accidental.

The UN should concern itself more with the fact that on their watch, Hezbollah has brought in over 10,000 rockets into the country and is armed better than most military units in the region. They should be concerned with the fact that Israel is not in Lebanon and gets attacked routinely, has its citizens murdered and kidnapped.

Rob perhaps you should start concerning yourself with the Arab terrorists that use civilians as cover, instead of constantly bashing anything having to do with Israel or America.

-Rudey

Nice to see you glossing over the facts and dancing around the truth... cause the UN report stated that the evidence clearly indicated a deliberate targeting of the UN compound... but shockingly once again the US and Israel somehow managed to place the blame on Hezbollah - not the IDF artillery battery that clearly shifted fire onto the compound and then switched the air-burst munitions...

In fact I'll help you out with the conclusions:
"(a) The distribution of impacts at Qana shows two distinct concentrations, whose mean points of impact are about 140 metres apart. If the guns were converged, as stated by the Israeli forces, there should have been only one main point of impact.

(b) The pattern of impacts is inconsistent with a normal overshooting of the declared target (the mortar site) by a few rounds, as suggested by the Israeli forces.

(c) During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound.

(d) The distribution of point impact detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by the Israeli forces.

(e) There were no impacts in the second target area which the Israeli forces claim to have shelled.

(f) Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time of the shelling.

While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors."

documents available at:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6...e?OpenDocument

Wiki of the "incident":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling

[Rudey]

Let me assist you in your reading: " While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely".

It's great that you place all blame on Israel and America and it's perfectly fine that terrorists use the UN and civilians as human shields. You're much too giving though in your blame.

Again, the UN needs to concern itself with how it's being used as an accessory to the murder of Israeli civilians.

-Rudey

Originally Posted by RACooper

Nice to see you glossing over the facts and dancing around the truth... cause the UN report stated that the evidence clearly indicated a deliberate targeting of the UN compound... but shockingly once again the US and Israel somehow managed to place the blame on Hezbollah - not the IDF artillery battery that clearly shifted fire onto the compound and then switched the air-burst munitions...

In fact I'll help you out with the conclusions:
"(a) The distribution of impacts at Qana shows two distinct concentrations, whose mean points of impact are about 140 metres apart. If the guns were converged, as stated by the Israeli forces, there should have been only one main point of impact.

(b) The pattern of impacts is inconsistent with a normal overshooting of the declared target (the mortar site) by a few rounds, as suggested by the Israeli forces.

(c) During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound.

(d) The distribution of point impact detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by the Israeli forces.

(e) There were no impacts in the second target area which the Israeli forces claim to have shelled.

(f) Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time of the shelling.

While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors."

documents available at:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6...e?OpenDocument

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

Let me assist you in your reading: " While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely".

It's great that you place all blame on Israel and America and it's perfectly fine that terrorists use the UN and civilians as human shields. You're much too giving though in your blame.

Again, the UN needs to concern itself with how it's being used as an accessory to the murder of Israeli civilians.

-Rudey

As opposed to say the IDF which directly murders UN troops and civilians?

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

As opposed to say the IDF which directly murders UN troops and civilians?

Murder is intentional and pre-meditated and the possibility that it wasn't intentional has been shown.

Again, it's good to know you support Hezbollah and the terrorists that attack civilians and then hide among civilians as well.

-Rudey

[shinerbock]

I find it ironic you consider the deaths of those UN officials to be so much more important than the thousands of Israeli deaths that the UN continuously ignores and condones.

[shinerbock]

Gentleman, we're straying from the point. I feel bad for the UN officials who died, but I really don't care about anything the UN has to say. The organization has shown itself to be incredibly biased against Israel, constantly condemning them, while doing nothing to stop terrorism. I think now is the perfect time to cut the cord between the U.S. and the UN. Why should we pay 25% of the UN's dues(according to Zogby International), and allow them to hold court in our country, all while they appease terrorists and act against western and Israeli interests?

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Gentleman, we're straying from the point. I feel bad for the UN officials who died, but I really don't care about anything the UN has to say. The organization has shown itself to be incredibly biased against Israel, constantly condemning them, while doing nothing to stop terrorism. I think now is the perfect time to cut the cord between the U.S. and the UN. Why should we pay 25% of the UN's dues(according to Zogby International), and allow them to hold court in our country, all while they appease terrorists and act against western and Israeli interests?

Agreed.

The UN allowed terrorists to grow and attack Israel and American interests, terrorist nations to continue their nuclear work, and is useless.

-Rudey