Israel at War?

[_Opi_]

You may post whatever you like, Rudey. It's a free country.

[RACooper]

I'm sorry Rudey but I don't buy the arguement that Israel's response isn't disproportionate... one only has to look at the numbers:

How many rockets has Hezbollah fired vs How many bombs/shells/rockets Israel has fired...
-or-
How many Lebanese have been killed vs How many Israelis have been killed...
-or-
How many Lebanese have been wounded vs How many Israelis have been wounded
-or-
How much infrastructure/property damage has bee caused by Hezbollah vs how much damage has been caused by Israel...
-or-
How much land has been sprayed with defoliants by Hezbollah vs how much has been sprayed by Israel

If you can point to one of these and say that the numbers are even close... then hey you just might have an arguement - but I don't see that happening.

[shinerbock]

You must be kidding me. Since when are wars fought based on proportion. Proportional response is a terribly useless military tactic which becomes even more so considering the enemy in this situation. So when Al Qaeda destroyed the WTC and hit the Pentagon, we should only go in and kill that many people, and do that amount of damage? This is not an eye for an eye situation for Israel. They are in a position where strong force is REQUIRED. They have to go in and eliminate these terrorists, whose goals include the complete destruction of Israel. Can you imagine Americans' outrage if we went in, killed a couple thousand terrorists after 9/11, then packed up and headed back, with Al Qaeda still alive and well? What do you expect Israel to do? Should they just react in a proportional manner, only to wait around for more rockets to hit their cities? The enemy Israel is dealing has no respect for human life, and the only reasonable course of action for Israel is to protect it's citizens by eradicating the terrorist organizations which threaten it.

[Kevin]

A proportional response for Israel would be for it to do to its unfriendly neighbors exactly what those neighbors would have done to Israel.

A proportional response would include the eradication of those countries.

So no, fortunately for these terrorist rogue states, Israel's response has not been proportional. If Israel showed the same lack of care for human life, there would be no conflict for us to debate.

[RACooper]

Sigh... this is what I hated the most about being the UN guy stuck in the middle. It seems in every recent conflict that each side sees itself as the embodyment of justice/good/truth/right, while at the same time reviling their enemies as being unrepentantly evil... The problem is that each side (and their supporters) begin to believe their own propaganda, and begin to lose sight of the fact that they are fighting and killing other human beings.

Yes Israel has the right to both defend itself, and strike back at the terrorists that attacked her... however that doesn't mean that Israel has the freedom or right to bomb the living-sh-t out of Lebanon to "teach them a lesson", nor does Israel have the right to turn the south into a wasteland. Israel declared war on Hezbollah, not Lebanon...

Now I'm sure you hear a lot of crap about Lebanon being a "rogue-state" or a "terrorist-state", which is a nice rallying cry for the warmongers... to bad it falls far short of the truth. Afterall this is the country that we here in the West were applauding for it's secular and intigrated Christian/Mulsim society that was embracing Democracy and freedom. Yes Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, but that is in reality it's secondary function or goal ~ truth be told it is one of the more effective social support and security groups in the Middle East... one only needs to look into it's social support programs, schools, hospitals, pension funds, and children/elderly care network to see it's overall impact on Lebanese culture.

Now if one had bothered to read any of the intelligence briefings or primers (CIA, JANES, CSIS) on Hezbollah's place in Lebanon over the past 4 years, one might have been struck by the diminishing power of the militant wing of Hezbollah, and the increasing power of the social/political factions. So one can also assume that the militant-wing's power is supreme now as many Lebanese look to them (and not the government) for a way to strike back at the Israeli's bombing them... in short Israel has changed the direction that Hezbollah, and perhaps Lebanese society as a whole, creating a reborn and re-energized terrorist group bent on the destruction of Israel.

Now as for comparisons to 9/11 and the laughable scenarios tossed forth in an effort to weaken my observations... how very Republican of y'all, invoking 9/11 to counter any arguement

However if you want me to throw back a counter example, why not look at the IRA and Britian's response to them? When Lord Mountbatten was assassinated or when a platoon of Paras were ambushed did Britain turns around and bomb the living-sh-t out of Ireland? No. Instead the went after the only the terrorists... did the IRA have political seats in Ireland? Yep (heck they had one seat in the British Parliament). Did that mean that Ireland was a terrorist state, or supporter of terrorism? No. Most of the funding for the IRA came from criminal acts and sponsors abroad. Why didn't Britain go after the IRA cells and support in Ireland with massive military might? Because they didn't want to empower their enemies, nor did they want to create a plethora of eager new recruits, nor did they want to create another generation outraged by British "atrocities"... in short the British looked at the big picture and the long term goal of what they wanted to accomplish ~ something perhaps Israel could have learned from.

[Rudey]

It would be great if you could stop taking swipes at America as well.

-Rudey

Originally Posted by RACooper

Sigh... this is what I hated the most about being the UN guy stuck in the middle. It seems in every recent conflict that each side sees itself as the embodyment of justice/good/truth/right, while at the same time reviling their enemies as being unrepentantly evil... The problem is that each side (and their supporters) begin to believe their own propaganda, and begin to lose sight of the fact that they are fighting and killing other human beings.

Yes Israel has the right to both defend itself, and strike back at the terrorists that attacked her... however that doesn't mean that Israel has the freedom or right to bomb the living-sh-t out of Lebanon to "teach them a lesson", nor does Israel have the right to turn the south into a wasteland. Israel declared war on Hezbollah, not Lebanon...

Now I'm sure you hear a lot of crap about Lebanon being a "rogue-state" or a "terrorist-state", which is a nice rallying cry for the warmongers... to bad it falls far short of the truth. Afterall this is the country that we here in the West were applauding for it's secular and intigrated Christian/Mulsim society that was embracing Democracy and freedom. Yes Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, but that is in reality it's secondary function or goal ~ truth be told it is one of the more effective social support and security groups in the Middle East... one only needs to look into it's social support programs, schools, hospitals, pension funds, and children/elderly care network to see it's overall impact on Lebanese culture.

Now if one had bothered to read any of the intelligence briefings or primers (CIA, JANES, CSIS) on Hezbollah's place in Lebanon over the past 4 years, one might have been struck by the diminishing power of the militant wing of Hezbollah, and the increasing power of the social/political factions. So one can also assume that the militant-wing's power is supreme now as many Lebanese look to them (and not the government) for a way to strike back at the Israeli's bombing them... in short Israel has changed the direction that Hezbollah, and perhaps Lebanese society as a whole, creating a reborn and re-energized terrorist group bent on the destruction of Israel.

Now as for comparisons to 9/11 and the laughable scenarios tossed forth in an effort to weaken my observations... how very Republican of y'all, invoking 9/11 to counter any arguement

However if you want me to throw back a counter example, why not look at the IRA and Britian's response to them? When Lord Mountbatten was assassinated or when a platoon of Paras were ambushed did Britain turns around and bomb the living-sh-t out of Ireland? No. Instead the went after the only the terrorists... did the IRA have political seats in Ireland? Yep (heck they had one seat in the British Parliament). Did that mean that Ireland was a terrorist state, or supporter of terrorism? No. Most of the funding for the IRA came from criminal acts and sponsors abroad. Why didn't Britain go after the IRA cells and support in Ireland with massive military might? Because they didn't want to empower their enemies, nor did they want to create a plethora of eager new recruits, nor did they want to create another generation outraged by British "atrocities"... in short the British looked at the big picture and the long term goal of what they wanted to accomplish ~ something perhaps Israel could have learned from.

[shinerbock]

You're right, Israel's situation isn't like 9/11. Its probably worse. Sure we as Americans have terrorism in the back of our minds, somewhere, but for Israelis, it is in the forefront, EVERYONE has been touched by it, and everyone must live in constant fear of it. Also, the IRA example is terrible. You act as though the British simply singled out the terrorists...Forgetting the fact that they beat, killed and spit on the Irish in the north, regardless of whether they were actually members of IRA or the PIRA. Now if Israel began going in and beating up everybody who was thought to sympathize with Hezbollah, that would be similar to some of what the British did in the North.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

I'm sorry Rudey but I don't buy the arguement that Israel's response isn't disproportionate... one only has to look at the numbers:

How many rockets has Hezbollah fired vs How many bombs/shells/rockets Israel has fired...
-or-
How many Lebanese have been killed vs How many Israelis have been killed...
-or-
How many Lebanese have been wounded vs How many Israelis have been wounded
-or-
How much infrastructure/property damage has bee caused by Hezbollah vs how much damage has been caused by Israel...
-or-
How much land has been sprayed with defoliants by Hezbollah vs how much has been sprayed by Israel

If you can point to one of these and say that the numbers are even close... then hey you just might have an arguement - but I don't see that happening.

I have an argument because you cannot even address a single point I've made.

Using your logic Israel should destroy Lebanon and kill everyone in it because that's the equivalent of its enemies' goals.

And using your logic, if 10,000 people are killed in Israel, the Israelis should walk into Lebanon and kill 10,000 random people.

Israel attacked roads and airports so that Hezbollah wouldn't bring in more weapons from Syria and Iran and so it wouldn't move the kidnapped soldiers into Lebanon.

And at the end of the day, Hezbollah didn't kill less Israelis because they wanted to.

But then again Rob, given that you don't consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organization, I'm sure it's easy for you to completely ignore all that and use that faulty logic.

-Rudey