Israel at War?

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

When the United Nations force in Lebanon, known as UNIFIL, reported losing contact with the outpost, it secured safe passage from Israel to send in Indian troops, who found the shelter collapsed and the remains of three of the four peacekeepers.

Ms. Lute said that Secretary General Kofi Annan, who in a statement Tuesday night issued in Rome had called the attacks “apparently deliberate,” now accepted the Israeli government’s assurance that they were not [deliberate]. She said the United Nations welcomed Israel’s promise to conduct an immediate investigation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/wo...d-nations.html

Again you seem to not address the points while launching into a diatribe. The UN has accepted it's not deliberate and welcomes an investigation. At some point you need to stop making these judgement calls and realize that evidence will be presented by those that are qualified to do so.

-Rudey

I'm just worried that once again political pressure will ruin any chance of the actual facts coming out... however I do know that the Irish protested the targeting and/or continued bombardment of their posts, and that Mj. Hess-von Kruedener did the same 10 times but was ignored... and at the end of the day a good officer of the PPCLI is dead becuase either: a) the IDF deliberately targeted his post (a former IDF post that the UN occupied in 1972) after bombarding the surrounding area for days before the fatal bombardment, or b) the IDF somehow misguided a GPS guided munition onto a highly visible, clearly marked position that was in communication with them at the time... either is a criminal act.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

I'm just worried that once again political pressure will ruin any chance of the actual facts coming out... however I do know that the Irish protested the targeting and/or continued bombardment of their posts, and that Mj. Hess-von Kruedener did the same 10 times but was ignored... and at the end of the day a good officer of the PPCLI is dead becuase either: a) the IDF deliberately targeted his post (a former IDF post that the UN occupied in 1972) after bombarding the surrounding area for days before the fatal bombardment, or b) the IDF somehow misguided a GPS guided munition onto a highly visible, clearly marked position that was in communication with them at the time... either is a criminal act.

You can be worried all you want; it's up to you.

You don't know anything until an investigation is complete. The UN which knows more than you and I says they welcome the investigation and Annan accepts that Israel did not deliberately target them. When the facts come out, they'll come out. And I don't know too many UN reports that haven't condemned Israel for something or another so I don't see why they'd stop here.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

You can be worried all you want; it's up to you.

You don't know anything until an investigation is complete. The UN which knows more than you and I says they welcome the investigation and Annan accepts that Israel did not deliberately target them. When the facts come out, they'll come out. And I don't know too many UN reports that haven't condemned Israel for something or another so I don't see why they'd stop here.

-Rudey

When it comes to the actual targetting and bombardment of the position in the days before the fatal attack... I'd say I know just as much as the UN about it, at least from reading Mj. Hess-von Kruedener emails... and pretty soon a whole lot of other people will as well since Cynthia (his wife) will be making them available to the Canadian Press...

From what he wrote he understood the tactical necessity of artillery and air bombardment of the areas around any future IDF line of advance... some of which came very close to his post in the preceeding days... in fact he jokingly wrote that the only tactical spot not hit was the one he occupied...

I'm pissed off and disgusted that someone who dedicated decades serving both in the PPCLI and as a peacekeeper in Cyprus, Bosnia (twice... once as my company commander), and Zaire would have been killed in this way - unarmed and defenceless because of Israel conditions, and then finally killed by the Israelis

[_Opi_]

Different Journalists discussing Propaganda in the American Media

http://video.google.com/googleplayer...23714384920696

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Different Journalists discussing Propaganda in the American Media

http://video.google.com/googleplayer...23714384920696

You post this propaganda and then ask why I get upset.

Fine. I'll do the same to you, except my material will be less about propaganda and more about the truth.

http://www.honestreporting.com/artic...Under_Fire.asp

A look at some of the myths and facts following Hezbollah's attack on Israel.


function titleFontChange(inc){ var fSize = document.getElementById('titleSpan').style.fontSiz e fSize = fSize.substring(0,2) if(Number(fSize)32) fSize = 32; document.getElementById('titleSpan').style.fontSiz e = (Number(fSize) + inc) +"px"; } Israeli military operations in Lebanon are taking place in response to an unprovoked border attack which left 8 Israeli soldiers dead and two kidnapped by the Hezbollah. Since then many more Israelis have been wounded and killed by over 700 Katyusha missiles and mortars that have rained down on Israel's northern cities, including as far south as Haifa and Tiberias. Israel is exercising her legitimate right to self-defense. Please stand up for Israel at this extremely difficult time and support our efforts to promote balance in the media, particularly as the volume of media coverage expands so dramatically.
MYTHS AND FACTS SURROUNDING THE CRISIS
Myth - "Israel's response is disproportionate."
Fact - The definition of a "disproportionate" response is a subjective one. The question that could be asked of any other country in the world is simply: "What would you do in the same situation?" When protecting its citizens, exercising the right to self-defense and responding to missile attacks over a recognized border, most countries would respond in a similar manner. After all, how many Israelis need to die before the world believes that Israeli responses are proportionate?
Any civilian casualties in a conflict are, of course, tragic and regrettable. Civilians on both sides are suffering. However, Israeli air strikes on Lebanon are not intended to kill civilians, unlike the hundreds of Hezbollah missiles that are targeted specifically at Israeli civilians who have been forced into bomb shelters for their own safety. Israel has even dropped leaflets on Beirut suburbs calling on civilians to stay away from Hezbollah strongholds to avoid being caught up in the fighting.
Israel has also been criticized for targeting Lebanese infrastructure such as the Beirut airport. However, it is also interesting to note what has not been targeted. For example, while the airport runway was bombed, other vital installations such as the control tower were left untouched and Lebanese civilian airliners were allowed to fly to safety. Transport hubs and bridges have been targeted in order to prevent Hezbollah moving the kidnapped Israeli soldiers deeper into Lebanon and possibly even as far as Iran, as well as to prevent the terrorist organization being re-supplied with arms from Iran and elsewhere.
Many of Hezbollah's facilities and missile launch sites are located near residential areas, such as the suburbs of southern Beirut. Terrorists hide within the civilian population and use this population as a shield. Israel's priority is to strike at the Hezbollah terrorist infrastructure that has been allowed to develop in Lebanon.
Israel has, so far, avoided initiating a major ground offensive into Lebanese territory and has barely used a fraction of the firepower available to the IDF.
Myth - "Lebanon bears no responsibility for the actions of Hezbollah."
Fact - UN Security Council Resolution 1559 of September 2004, which referred back to Resolution 425, called "upon all remaining foreign forces to withdraw from Lebanon"; "for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias"; and supported "the extension of the control of the Government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory".
Syria eventually complied with 1559 and removed its occupying forces. However, the Lebanese government has not disarmed Hezbollah nor has it sent its armed forces to secure southern Lebanon and the border with Israel.
In addition, Hezbollah is actually part of the Lebanese government, which contains two Hezbollah members in the Cabinet. The Lebanese government, therefore, cannot abstain from responsibility for the actions of a part of its own leadership.
Myth - "Hezbollah is an indigenous Lebanese 'resistance' organization."
Fact - According to the Council on Foreign Relations, the Hezbollah:

is a Lebanese umbrella organization of radical Islamic Shiite groups and organizations. It opposes the West, seeks to create a Muslim fundamentalist state modeled on Iran, and is a bitter foe of Israel. Hezbollah, whose name means "party of God," is a terrorist group believed responsible for nearly 200 attacks since 1982 that have killed more than 800 people.

Hezbollah and its affiliates have planned or been linked to a lengthy series of terrorist attacks against the United States, Israel, and other Western targets. These attacks include:

• a series of kidnappings of Westerners in Lebanon, including several Americans, in the 1980s;
• the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. Marines at their barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983;
• the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847, which featured the famous footage of the plane?s pilot leaning out of the cockpit with a gun to his head;
• and two major 1990s attacks on Jewish targets in Argentina - the 1992 bombing of the Israeli Embassy (killing twenty-nine) and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center (killing ninety-five).

In addition, Hezbollah is sponsored, funded and armed by Iran and Syria who use the organization as a proxy to fight Israel and to destabilize the region. Hezbollah is designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the US State Department.
For more information on Hezbollah, see the following sources:
Anti-Defamation League
Institute for Counter-Terrorism
Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center
Terrorism Knowledge Base
Myth - "Outside actors such as Iran are not fuelling the crisis."

Fact - A number of analysts have suggested that the timing of the Hezbollah operation is no coincidence, occurring just prior to the G8 Summit in St. Petersburg. The G8 was expected to concentrate heavily on Iran's refusal to comply with demands to curtail its nuclear program. A wider Mideast crisis, provoked by Iran's Hezbollah proxies, has now moved to the top of the G8 agenda, thus relieving some of the pressure on Iran.
In addition, Iranian fingerprints are to be found in the current conflict. The Katyusha missiles that are currently raining down on the north of Israel are supplied by Iran. An Israeli Naval vessel was also struck by an Iranian-made C802 missile, killing four sailors.
Myth - "Israel continues to occupy Lebanese land, specifically the Shebaa Farms area."
Fact - On May 24, 2000, Israel completed the unilateral withdrawal of all IDF forces from southern Lebanon, in accordance with Israeli government decisions and UN Security Council Resolution 425, ending an 18-year presence there.

On June 18, 2000, the UN Security Council endorsed the Secretary-General's conclusion that, as of 16 June, Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in accordance with Resolution 425.
As explained by Israel's Foreign Ministry, the Shebaa Farms area is not, and should not be, considered disputed territory - its status was clarified by a number of United Nations statements following the withdrawal of Israel forces from Lebanon in May 2000.

The United Nations views the Shebaa Farms area as Syrian territory. Therefore, UN Security Council Resolution 425 - which concerns Lebanon - does not require Israel to withdraw from this area.
While Lebanon claims to be the owner of the Shebaa Farms area, the UN has encouraged the Lebanese and Syrians to negotiate between themselves as to who is the rightful owner. If Syria were to cede ownership of the area to Lebanon, then it is probable that Israel and the UN would then reconsider the status of the territory. In the meantime, the issue of the Shebaa Farms is used simply as an excuse for the Hezbollah to maintain itself as an armed force in the region.
Myth - "Arab prisoners held in Israeli jails were kidnapped from Lebanese soil and should be released."
Some Lebanese and other Arab spokespeople have defended Hezbollah's actions as a legitimate form of "resistance" aimed at securing the release of Lebanese prisoners held in Israeli jails from the period of Israel's presence in its southern Lebanon security zone.
Fact - The prisoner whom Hezbollah is demanding, above all others, be released, is Samir Kuntar, jailed in Israel since a 1979 attack in the northern Israeli town of Nahariyah, in which he entered an apartment and murdered three family members and an Israeli police officer.
Kuntar is quite simply a terrorist and a murderer who committed a terrible atrocity on Israeli soil. Those prisoners held in Israeli jails captured during Israel's stay in southern Lebanon are, likewise, held for terrorist offences and due to the inherent risk that they will return to their previous activities.


-Rudey

[Rudey]

Sites to help people understand Arab lies and media bias against Israel:
http://www.honestreporting.com/
http://www.camera.org
http://www.imra.org.il
http://www.middleeastfacts.com
http://www.palestinefacts.org/
http://www.memri.org/

I can also start posting videos and pictures like you opi.

-Rudey

[_Opi_]

You may post whatever you like, Rudey. It's a free country.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

You can be worried all you want; it's up to you.

You don't know anything until an investigation is complete. The UN which knows more than you and I says they welcome the investigation and Annan accepts that Israel did not deliberately target them. When the facts come out, they'll come out. And I don't know too many UN reports that haven't condemned Israel for something or another so I don't see why they'd stop here.

-Rudey

Ah yes because Israel has never done something like this in the past

Oh wait... that's right the Qana Massacre ten years ago... you know when the IDF shelled a UN outpost harbouring Lebanese civlians fleeing the Israeli retalatory strikes aimed at destroying Hezbollah (hmm deja vu?)... except in this case the IDF shelled the compound with anti-personal artillery shells (proximity fuses) which resulted in the death of 106 civilians and the wounding of 100 more. An investigation was launched into that incident as well... an investigation that concluded it was a deliberate attack...

So pardon me if I don't have any faith in an investigation of the IDF... because I'm sure once again the IDF will quitely protect the war-criminals in its ranks

[shinerbock]

While I agree in part with your statements about the IRA, the idea that that blanketly targeted civilians is false. If by civilians, you mean co-conspirators, informants, etc, then yes, they targeted those. However, it is nothing like these Middle Eastern terror orgs which target people they know nothing about, other than that they are Jewish or Western. If you believe the IRA made regular practice of targeting protestants simply because of their faith, you're again mistaken. While the violence appeared sectarian, and on some level may be, it was not solely due to their faith. It was the simply fact that much of their opposition happened to be protestant. Obviously religion was a dividing line, but there was no desire to destroy all protestants or all of England. I'm sure hatred led few to wish for that, but the efforts did not indicate that, but rather a struggle to be left alone. Also, you pegging me as an IRA apologist is just stupid, as I previously stated I did not condone their tactics, but simply did not fall victim to the propaganda produced by the British government.

Now, regarding Israel...you're right again, much of the middle east conflict is not black/white, but some of it is. Let me ask you this, given your distaste for Israel and your apparent support for their attackers, what would you suggest they do? You mentioned some sort of proportional reaction, is that what you expect? If so, is Israel then not failing to protect its citizens? Should they merely wait for attacks to respond, and have their people live in constant fear? I'm sure there are many, if not a majority, of middle eastern muslims who do not wish for the eradication of Israel and the Jews. However, Israel is threatened by terrorist groups which wish for exactly those things. I think a fundamental disagreement people have regarding this issue involves islam itself. While I believe there are many muslims who are peace loving people, I do not consider the Islamic faith to be peaceful. This isn't to say that violence is the original intent of the faith, but I believe that most involved in the Islamic faith, especially in the region, view Jews as subhuman. I, and others, believe that they(Arabs and Iranians) are taught and fully believe that Jews are their natural enemy. Because of this, many people in the world view the Islamic faith as dangerous, and I think that in today's atmosphere it is. Once again, this is not necc reflective on what the intent of the faith is, but given its leaders and popular sentiment, I believe it to be true. I truly believe that Israel is a country whose sole desire is to be left alone. They have not shown anything to the contrary. They are surrounded by countries who hate them, and are thus placed in the precarious role of protecting its citizens at all times, without rest. Like any violent prolonged situation, there will be incidents where Israel is overly violent or inhumane. However, the large majority of their action is defensive, and if offensive, it is only to protect themselves in the future.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Ah yes because Israel has never done something like this in the past

Oh wait... that's right the Qana Massacre ten years ago... you know when the IDF shelled a UN outpost harbouring Lebanese civlians fleeing the Israeli retalatory strikes aimed at destroying Hezbollah (hmm deja vu?)... except in this case the IDF shelled the compound with anti-personal artillery shells (proximity fuses) which resulted in the death of 106 civilians and the wounding of 100 more. An investigation was launched into that incident as well... an investigation that concluded it was a deliberate attack...

So pardon me if I don't have any faith in an investigation of the IDF... because I'm sure once again the IDF will quitely protect the war-criminals in its ranks

Evidently you not only can't respond to points I make but you also post irrelevant stories.

In 1996 Hezbollah again attacked Israel and murdered and wounded Israelis (more Israeli casualties than Lebanese by the way).

Operation Grapes of Wrath was launched to fire back into Lebanon. After intense shelling from Lebanon, Israel shot back 15 minutes later.

Israel hit around a UN facility where civilians were and some died. Israel apologized. The UN said they cannot rule out the possibility that it was accidental.

The UN should concern itself more with the fact that on their watch, Hezbollah has brought in over 10,000 rockets into the country and is armed better than most military units in the region. They should be concerned with the fact that Israel is not in Lebanon and gets attacked routinely, has its citizens murdered and kidnapped.

Rob perhaps you should start concerning yourself with the Arab terrorists that use civilians as cover, instead of constantly bashing anything having to do with Israel or America.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

Evidently you not only can't respond to points I make but you also post irrelevant stories.

In 1996 Hezbollah again attacked Israel and murdered and wounded Israelis (more Israeli casualties than Lebanese by the way).

Operation Grapes of Wrath was launched to fire back into Lebanon. After intense shelling from Lebanon, Israel shot back 15 minutes later.

Israel hit around a UN facility where civilians were and some died. Israel apologized. The UN said they cannot rule out the possibility that it was accidental.

The UN should concern itself more with the fact that on their watch, Hezbollah has brought in over 10,000 rockets into the country and is armed better than most military units in the region. They should be concerned with the fact that Israel is not in Lebanon and gets attacked routinely, has its citizens murdered and kidnapped.

Rob perhaps you should start concerning yourself with the Arab terrorists that use civilians as cover, instead of constantly bashing anything having to do with Israel or America.

-Rudey

Nice to see you glossing over the facts and dancing around the truth... cause the UN report stated that the evidence clearly indicated a deliberate targeting of the UN compound... but shockingly once again the US and Israel somehow managed to place the blame on Hezbollah - not the IDF artillery battery that clearly shifted fire onto the compound and then switched the air-burst munitions...

In fact I'll help you out with the conclusions:
"(a) The distribution of impacts at Qana shows two distinct concentrations, whose mean points of impact are about 140 metres apart. If the guns were converged, as stated by the Israeli forces, there should have been only one main point of impact.

(b) The pattern of impacts is inconsistent with a normal overshooting of the declared target (the mortar site) by a few rounds, as suggested by the Israeli forces.

(c) During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound.

(d) The distribution of point impact detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by the Israeli forces.

(e) There were no impacts in the second target area which the Israeli forces claim to have shelled.

(f) Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time of the shelling.

While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors."

documents available at:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6...e?OpenDocument

Wiki of the "incident":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling

[Rudey]

Let me assist you in your reading: " While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely".

It's great that you place all blame on Israel and America and it's perfectly fine that terrorists use the UN and civilians as human shields. You're much too giving though in your blame.

Again, the UN needs to concern itself with how it's being used as an accessory to the murder of Israeli civilians.

-Rudey

Originally Posted by RACooper

Nice to see you glossing over the facts and dancing around the truth... cause the UN report stated that the evidence clearly indicated a deliberate targeting of the UN compound... but shockingly once again the US and Israel somehow managed to place the blame on Hezbollah - not the IDF artillery battery that clearly shifted fire onto the compound and then switched the air-burst munitions...

In fact I'll help you out with the conclusions:
"(a) The distribution of impacts at Qana shows two distinct concentrations, whose mean points of impact are about 140 metres apart. If the guns were converged, as stated by the Israeli forces, there should have been only one main point of impact.

(b) The pattern of impacts is inconsistent with a normal overshooting of the declared target (the mortar site) by a few rounds, as suggested by the Israeli forces.

(c) During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound.

(d) The distribution of point impact detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by the Israeli forces.

(e) There were no impacts in the second target area which the Israeli forces claim to have shelled.

(f) Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time of the shelling.

While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors."

documents available at:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6...e?OpenDocument

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

Let me assist you in your reading: " While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely".

It's great that you place all blame on Israel and America and it's perfectly fine that terrorists use the UN and civilians as human shields. You're much too giving though in your blame.

Again, the UN needs to concern itself with how it's being used as an accessory to the murder of Israeli civilians.

-Rudey

As opposed to say the IDF which directly murders UN troops and civilians?

[shinerbock]

Gentleman, we're straying from the point. I feel bad for the UN officials who died, but I really don't care about anything the UN has to say. The organization has shown itself to be incredibly biased against Israel, constantly condemning them, while doing nothing to stop terrorism. I think now is the perfect time to cut the cord between the U.S. and the UN. Why should we pay 25% of the UN's dues(according to Zogby International), and allow them to hold court in our country, all while they appease terrorists and act against western and Israeli interests?

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Gentleman, we're straying from the point. I feel bad for the UN officials who died, but I really don't care about anything the UN has to say. The organization has shown itself to be incredibly biased against Israel, constantly condemning them, while doing nothing to stop terrorism. I think now is the perfect time to cut the cord between the U.S. and the UN. Why should we pay 25% of the UN's dues(according to Zogby International), and allow them to hold court in our country, all while they appease terrorists and act against western and Israeli interests?

Agreed.

The UN allowed terrorists to grow and attack Israel and American interests, terrorist nations to continue their nuclear work, and is useless.

-Rudey