Israel at War?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Precise Israeli bombings? bombs are NOT precise. They are indiscriminate. If they were so precise, why was the UNIFIL, just yesterday, bombed at? This isnt the first time this happened. There was another bombing about a week ago, both hizbullah and IDF said it wasn't their bombs. But the UN confirmed it to be an Israeli shell. These bombs and targets are NOT precise. Unless of course, you consider a mosque (under construction and obviously unoccupied) are precise targetting. Or how about the hospitals under attack? the infrastructure of lebano. How about the targetting of fleeing families (trying to evacuate)? Sorry, it is NOT precise enough. Maybe the missiles the US is sending could help them out a bit.

Congratulations on knocking down the strawman.

You've put up anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but that does NOT address my point: Israel has not 'carpet bombed' the area, nor has it concentrated on parts of Beirut outside of the southern, Hezbollah-controlled suburbs. This means they have selected small areas of concern, and attacked these. This means they are attempting to act with precision.

"Precise enough" is a vaguely humanitarian concern that does not further the discussion (nor does it really help your point all that much - think about that).

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Civilians are necessary collateral damage? Does that include Israeli civilian lives as well, or just lebanese? Does it include children, babies, fleeing families, foreigners (UN)?

YES, by definition.

Israelis have died. Canadians have died. Fewer innocent Lebonese have died because of Israel's strike pattern than would have had they attacked indiscriminately.

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Listen, bombs (whether from Israel or Hizbullah) are indiscriminate. Except, its Israel who are saying they are being "careful" not to target civilians when they obviously are. Again, who is suffering most of the loss here? Let's get this straight, Lebanon DID not start this war. Hizbullah did (and no under governmental orders either).

. . . and let's get this straight: Israel has not attacked at the Lebanese government, it has not invaded, it has not even attempted a full-on infrastructure attack outside of Hezbollah-controlled areas.

So what now, Opi? Why do you ignore this, simply because you read about a Mosque falling? Why do you ignore what you read about rockets fired into towns, into civilian dwellings, on the Israeli side of the border?

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Propoganda is perpetrated by both sides (IDF and Hizbullah).

Did I address all your points?

I agree, but you didn't address my point about propaganda - namely, that Hezbollah has attempted to needlessly DRIVE UP the number of Lebanese civilian casualties by placing strategic encampments or targets within civilian locations. This is a de facto use of the 'human shield', and has been the modus operendi of terror groups in the area for decades.

So no, you did not address my points.

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Israelis have died. Canadians have died. Fewer innocent Lebonese have died because of Israel's strike pattern than would have had they attacked indiscriminately.

Actually, few Israeli civilians have died. The majority deaths are soldiers. More Lebanese than Israeli civilians have died.

So what now, Opi? Why do you ignore this, simply because you read about a Mosque falling? Why do you ignore what you read about rockets fired into towns, into civilian dwellings, on the Israeli side of the border?

I don't care about a mosque (under construction) falling, but that Israel govt kept telling the world there was a bunker in there. CNN went in there. No bunker, no bombs.

I don't ignore Israeli civilians. First, their government should really try to get them to evacuate. two, they have bomb shelters. Lebanese civilians do not.

I agree, but you didn't address my point about propaganda - namely, that Hezbollah has attempted to needlessly DRIVE UP the number of Lebanese civilian casualties by placing strategic encampments or targets within civilian locations. This is a de facto use of the 'human shield', and has been the modus operendi of terror groups in the area for decades.

.

During times of wars, both sides purport propoganda. This is the point I am addressing with you. You want me to say any other news agency in the world except for American ones are sources of propoganda. I will disagree with you on that. Actually, I don't need a news media or hizbullah or the IDF to tell me that the actual numbers of Lebanese deaths are not nearly as high as it should.

How about this for propoganda, why do we know the age of the Israeli girl that died today, but we don't know the ages (yes more than 1 child) of the children in Lebanon that died today. Hizbullah propoganda?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Actually, few Israeli civilians have died. The majority deaths are soldiers. More Lebanese than Israeli civilians have died.

I don't see why this distinction is important, to be honest. If anything, it's mostly related to your point below:

Originally Posted by _Opi_

I don't ignore Israeli civilians. First, their government should really try to get them to evacuate. two, they have bomb shelters. Lebanese civilians do not.

And so . . . ? I don't see how this 'matters', in a 'war' sense. Should Israel stop attacking because the Lebanese are worse equipped than their own civilians for such an attack?

Maybe it should tell you something that the Israelis HAVE such provisions available . . .

Originally Posted by _Opi_

During times of wars, both sides purport propoganda. This is the point I am addressing with you. You want me to say any other news agency in the world except for American ones are sources of propoganda. I will disagree with you on that. Actually, I don't need a news media or hizbullah or the IDF to tell me that the actual numbers of Lebanese deaths are not nearly as high as it should.

I don't want you to say anything of the sort - in fact, I've never assailed your sources, just your conclusions. I agree that both sides will twist media attention in their favor - see: Israel bombs mosque, claims shelter, CNN can't find evidence. However, saying "ISRAEL DOES IT TOO!" does NOT, in fact, negate my point at all - it's fallacious logic.

Originally Posted by _Opi_

How about this for propoganda, why do we know the age of the Israeli girl that died today, but we don't know the ages (yes more than 1 child) of the children in Lebanon that died today. Hizbullah propoganda?

Nope, I'd say that's good old fashioned American journalism during wartime - something that's been going on for decades, and something I don't necessarily agree with. DeltAlum may actually provide some insight here, too - there might be other reasons, such as lack of access to Lebanese information/stories comparatively, or the rationale of taking one story as indicative and exploring it in detail - but regardless, I'm not playing apologist for propaganda techniques.

I'm simply asserting that one benefit for Hezbollah in placing strategic locations within urban areas comes in the ability to claim "Israel has killed the innocent!" when unavoidable collateral damage occurs.

You have addressed this by saying "Israel manipulates the media too!" This is not, at all, the issue. You're going 10 rounds with the strawman instead of swinging for the actual topic.

[_Opi_]

My sister's favorite sentence: Let's agree to disagree!

Shall we?

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

My sister's favorite sentence: Let's agree to disagree!

Shall we?

One of my favorite phrases since I've been working is "the dick dance."

That's what the past however many pages have been.