Israel at War?

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

You haven't addressed the point that essentially refutes this:

Israel has been quite precise in its bombing, and has spent limited resources on attacks on civilian areas in the south of Lebanon and the Hezbollah-controlled southern suburbs of Beirut.

If Israel chose to ignore civilian lives, it would not show this sort of precision.

Are civilians killed? Yes - clearly. The reasons for this are essentially a.) propaganda techniques by Hezbollah that place tactical positions inside civilian encampments (which they've done since, oh, the 1970s - and we saw this in Iraq, as well, with Mosque encampments) and b.) the necessary collateral damage of war.

Note that this issue is NOT a matter of degree - that is to say, "just because Israel could wipe the nation off the map, that does not mean they are doing well by not" - as I'm sure will be your initial reaction. However, I'm pretty sure you can't get around this point - especially when rockets are being fired indescriminately into Israeli civilian locations.

Can you actually address this point? No ad hominem, no political bias - no way for you to cop out here, I'm seriously interested.

Precise Israeli bombings? bombs are NOT precise. They are indiscriminate. If they were so precise, why was the UNIFIL, just yesterday, bombed at? This isnt the first time this happened. There was another bombing about a week ago, both hizbullah and IDF said it wasn't their bombs. But the UN confirmed it to be an Israeli shell. These bombs and targets are NOT precise. Unless of course, you consider a mosque (under construction and obviously unoccupied) are precise targetting. Or how about the hospitals under attack? the infrastructure of lebano. How about the targetting of fleeing families (trying to evacuate)? Sorry, it is NOT precise enough. Maybe the missiles the US is sending could help them out a bit.

Civilians are necessary collateral damage? Does that include Israeli civilian lives as well, or just lebanese? Does it include children, babies, fleeing families, foreigners (UN)?

Listen, bombs (whether from Israel or Hizbullah) are indiscriminate. Except, its Israel who are saying they are being "careful" not to target civilians when they obviously are. Again, who is suffering most of the loss here? Let's get this straight, Lebanon DID not start this war. Hizbullah did (and no under governmental orders either).

Propoganda is perpetrated by both sides (IDF and Hizbullah).

Did I address all your points?

[Rudey]

Katyusha rockets are not precise. It's like aiming at the general direction and watching the rocket go as far as possible with ball bearing and nails capped in the head so that when it lands it does maximum human damage to anyone nearby. They also use Iranian and Russian rockets which are much more precise and pretty much on par with what a lot of armies in the middle east have if not better. When was the last time you heard of a terrorist organization using satellite guided missiles? It's not often.

You know I don't know if you know this or not. A lot of the victims in Israel are Arab and Muslim. When those rockets rain down on them, there are lots of children dying. And Israel has sent Jewish soldiers into Lebanon and sacrificed their lives to protect its citizens, regardless of race or religion.

Israel has flown several thousand sorties over Lebanon this time. They attacked roads and airports to prevent new weapons from coming in, hezbollah buildings to stop hezbollah from communicating, and trucks that they worried would carry new bombs. They dropped leaflets all over Southern Beirut asking civilians to leave. Only a couple hundred victims have died from this. And a lot of what's labeled as civilian simply is not. I'm not talking about children but people who keep bombs under their beds.

And you know what else Opi? Israeli soldiers have died from friendly fire. It's bound to happen. And it gets investigated. Much the same way, 4 UN soldiers died. Israel will investigate. Hezbollah has shot up UN personnel but nobody is investigating.

It's funny. How many Iraqi children die from Muslims killing Muslims? How about when Assad murdered 30,000 Syrians himself? But those are not considered atrocities. And when Arabs kill Israelis, it's considered heroic. It's only when Israel tries to fight back and a few civilians die in the process that Arabs consider it an atrocity.

-Rudey
--And again, Hezbollah and Hamas can release the prisoners and stop attacking Israel for no reason other than the fact they want it destroyed and this will all stop.

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Precise Israeli bombings? bombs are NOT precise. They are indiscriminate. If they were so precise, why was the UNIFIL, just yesterday, bombed at? This isnt the first time this happened. There was another bombing about a week ago, both hizbullah and IDF said it wasn't their bombs. But the UN confirmed it to be an Israeli shell. These bombs and targets are NOT precise. Unless of course, you consider a mosque (under construction and obviously unoccupied) are precise targetting. Or how about the hospitals under attack? the infrastructure of lebano. How about the targetting of fleeing families (trying to evacuate)? Sorry, it is NOT precise enough. Maybe the missiles the US is sending could help them out a bit.

Civilians are necessary collateral damage? Does that include Israeli civilian lives as well, or just lebanese? Does it include children, babies, fleeing families, foreigners (UN)?

Listen, bombs (whether from Israel or Hizbullah) are indiscriminate. Except, its Israel who are saying they are being "careful" not to target civilians when they obviously are. Again, who is suffering most of the loss here? Let's get this straight, Lebanon DID not start this war. Hizbullah did (and no under governmental orders either).

Propoganda is perpetrated by both sides (IDF and Hizbullah).

Did I address all your points?

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

Much the same way, 4 UN soldiers died. Israel will investigate. Hezbollah has shot up UN personnel but nobody is investigating.

Oh really? When was the last time that Hezbollah used "precise" munitions to bomb those pesky UN troops using their post as an evacuation point for civilians? Or fired off a couple tank rounds at Ghanese UN troops operating an aid station and flying the Red Crescent?

Sorry Rudey but F-ck Isreal and the IDF claiming that it was an accident - you can't play it both ways by claiming that you carefully plot attacks and that guided muntions (bomb and arti) are used... and then turn around and claim that whoops you bombed a highly visible and plotted neutral position...

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Oh really? When was the last time that Hezbollah used "precise" munitions to bomb those pesky UN troops using their post as an evacuation point for civilians? Or fired off a couple tank rounds at Ghanese UN troops operating an aid station and flying the Red Crescent?

Sorry Rudey but F-ck Isreal and the IDF claiming that it was an accident - you can't play it both ways by claiming that you carefully plot attacks and that guided muntions (bomb and arti) are used... and then turn around and claim that whoops you bombed a highly visible and plotted neutral position...

Please tell me Rob how it would benefit Israel to bomb the UN intentionally? I would love to know.

Israel said it would investigate. It has been apologizing. The UN has backed away from its charge that it was intentional and is accepting that there will be an investigation.

-Rudey
--Oh and F-ck the UN for standing by while Israelis were murdered by Hezbollah in front of them, F-ck the UN for not releasing a video tape of the attack and their looking the other way, and F-ck the UN for pretending it's neutral.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

-Rudey
--Oh and F-ck the UN for standing by while Israelis were murdered by Hezbollah in front of them, F-ck the UN for not releasing a video tape of the attack and their looking the other way, and F-ck the UN for pretending it's neutral.

Oohhh... so you want to play the blame game then huh...

Well F-ck Israel for prohibiting the UN from entering it's territory; F-ck Israel for not permitting the UN to bring it's wounded or wounded civilians into Israel; F-ck Israel for not allowing UN troops to intervene in any incident involving the IDF; F-ck Israel for destroying UN equipment and medicines that might be used to treat and move the wounded; and finally F-ck Israel for always thinking they are on the side of right...

[shinerbock]

No, congratulations to Israel on their wise decisions to not let the anti Israeli association known as the UN to interfere with their actions. The Israeli government is absolutely right in not allowing the UN to keep Israel from protecting its citizens. This situation shows the bias and worthlessness of the United Nations. If I were PM, I'd tell the UN that we'll allow the U.S. to send in aid, but the UN should get out. They don't need a psuedo-peace keeping organization interrupting their mission.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Oohhh... so you want to play the blame game then huh...

Well F-ck Israel for prohibiting the UN from entering it's territory; F-ck Israel for not permitting the UN to bring it's wounded or wounded civilians into Israel; F-ck Israel for not allowing UN troops to intervene in any incident involving the IDF; F-ck Israel for destroying UN equipment and medicines that might be used to treat and move the wounded; and finally F-ck Israel for always thinking they are on the side of right...

Rob it's great that you ignore the points made. It's a sign of the fact that you can't address them.

Again, the UN is not saying it was deliberate and is happy there will be an investigation. But I am sure based on your expert opinion, it's otherwise.

And your F-ck points don't even make sense and are irrelevant. Israel has allowed a humanitarian corridor into Lebanon for medicines and supplies and allowed for international access to Lebanon to move foreign citizens out.

But again, it's great that the UN saw Israelis being murdered, looked the other way, and chose to not share a videotape of the incident. It's great that you addressed that Rob. And it's great that when nobody ever said Israel is always right, you come in to condemn Israel and its supporters for just that - clearly an indication that you are level headed and have no biases.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

Rob it's great that you ignore the points made. It's a sign of the fact that you can't address them.

Again, the UN is not saying it was deliberate and is happy there will be an investigation. But I am sure based on your expert opinion, it's otherwise.

Well I'd have to say evidence is kinda mounting that it was either deliberate or an act of gross military incompetence...

UN peacekeepers called Israel 10 times to ask for bombing halt before post hit

JERUSALEM (AP) - UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon called the Israeli military 10 times in a six-hour period to ask it to halt its nearby bombing before their observation post was hit, killing a Canadian and three other observers, according to details of a preliminary UN report on the incident released to The Associated Press on Wednesday.

During each phone call, an Israeli official promised to halt the bombing, according to a UN official who had seen the preliminary report.

The UN peacekeepers at the post said the area within a kilometre of the post was hit with precision munitions, including 17 bombs and 12 artillery shells, four of which directly hit the post Tuesday, the report said.



... (and this tidbit)
Annan said the "co-ordinated artillery and aerial attack on a long established and clearly marked UN post at Khiam occurred despite personal assurances given to me by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that UN positions would be spared Israeli fire."
rest of article at:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/26072006/...bing-halt.html

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

But again, it's great that the UN saw Israelis being murdered, looked the other way, and chose to not share a videotape of the incident. It's great that you addressed that Rob. And it's great that when nobody ever said Israel is always right, you come in to condemn Israel and its supporters for just that - clearly an indication that you are level headed and have no biases.

-Rudey

Well lets just say I'm biased in the way that I will trust the opinion and word of those I served with, more than the word of a decidely anti-UN media and IDF...

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

Again, the UN is not saying it was deliberate and is happy there will be an investigation. But I am sure based on your expert opinion, it's otherwise.

Ah yes the UN Security Council dropped the language stating that it was an intentional or dileberate attack, as well as making any condemnation at the insistance of the US... I gotta say I'm ever so surprised that the US would take an anti-UN pro-Israel stance

But again, it's great that the UN saw Israelis being murdered, looked the other way, and chose to not share a videotape of the incident. It's great that you addressed that Rob. And it's great that when nobody ever said Israel is always right, you come in to condemn Israel and its supporters for just that - clearly an indication that you are level headed and have no biases.

-Rudey

Fair enough Rudey - please point out the number of times, and casualties, that Hezbollah (the "evil terrorists") has attacked a UN post... as say opposed to the number of times the Israelis (the "good guys") have done so...

When you wrap your mind around that - then you might understand why I condemn the "good guys" for yet again F-cking attacking the UN

Oh and nice to see that the IDF has refused any interviews or information to be forthcoming in the UN investivgation (again)... but it's going to be bloody hard to explain how Israel "accidently" dropped 3 laser-guided "bunker-buster
bombs... hopefully this time the IDF won't escape charges for a war-crime.

I'm sure the airforce folks on the site might be able to shed light on how improbible it is to claim this attack as "accidental" given the facts emerging.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Precise Israeli bombings? bombs are NOT precise. They are indiscriminate. If they were so precise, why was the UNIFIL, just yesterday, bombed at? This isnt the first time this happened. There was another bombing about a week ago, both hizbullah and IDF said it wasn't their bombs. But the UN confirmed it to be an Israeli shell. These bombs and targets are NOT precise. Unless of course, you consider a mosque (under construction and obviously unoccupied) are precise targetting. Or how about the hospitals under attack? the infrastructure of lebano. How about the targetting of fleeing families (trying to evacuate)? Sorry, it is NOT precise enough. Maybe the missiles the US is sending could help them out a bit.

Congratulations on knocking down the strawman.

You've put up anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but that does NOT address my point: Israel has not 'carpet bombed' the area, nor has it concentrated on parts of Beirut outside of the southern, Hezbollah-controlled suburbs. This means they have selected small areas of concern, and attacked these. This means they are attempting to act with precision.

"Precise enough" is a vaguely humanitarian concern that does not further the discussion (nor does it really help your point all that much - think about that).

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Civilians are necessary collateral damage? Does that include Israeli civilian lives as well, or just lebanese? Does it include children, babies, fleeing families, foreigners (UN)?

YES, by definition.

Israelis have died. Canadians have died. Fewer innocent Lebonese have died because of Israel's strike pattern than would have had they attacked indiscriminately.

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Listen, bombs (whether from Israel or Hizbullah) are indiscriminate. Except, its Israel who are saying they are being "careful" not to target civilians when they obviously are. Again, who is suffering most of the loss here? Let's get this straight, Lebanon DID not start this war. Hizbullah did (and no under governmental orders either).

. . . and let's get this straight: Israel has not attacked at the Lebanese government, it has not invaded, it has not even attempted a full-on infrastructure attack outside of Hezbollah-controlled areas.

So what now, Opi? Why do you ignore this, simply because you read about a Mosque falling? Why do you ignore what you read about rockets fired into towns, into civilian dwellings, on the Israeli side of the border?

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Propoganda is perpetrated by both sides (IDF and Hizbullah).

Did I address all your points?

I agree, but you didn't address my point about propaganda - namely, that Hezbollah has attempted to needlessly DRIVE UP the number of Lebanese civilian casualties by placing strategic encampments or targets within civilian locations. This is a de facto use of the 'human shield', and has been the modus operendi of terror groups in the area for decades.

So no, you did not address my points.

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Israelis have died. Canadians have died. Fewer innocent Lebonese have died because of Israel's strike pattern than would have had they attacked indiscriminately.

Actually, few Israeli civilians have died. The majority deaths are soldiers. More Lebanese than Israeli civilians have died.

So what now, Opi? Why do you ignore this, simply because you read about a Mosque falling? Why do you ignore what you read about rockets fired into towns, into civilian dwellings, on the Israeli side of the border?

I don't care about a mosque (under construction) falling, but that Israel govt kept telling the world there was a bunker in there. CNN went in there. No bunker, no bombs.

I don't ignore Israeli civilians. First, their government should really try to get them to evacuate. two, they have bomb shelters. Lebanese civilians do not.

I agree, but you didn't address my point about propaganda - namely, that Hezbollah has attempted to needlessly DRIVE UP the number of Lebanese civilian casualties by placing strategic encampments or targets within civilian locations. This is a de facto use of the 'human shield', and has been the modus operendi of terror groups in the area for decades.

.

During times of wars, both sides purport propoganda. This is the point I am addressing with you. You want me to say any other news agency in the world except for American ones are sources of propoganda. I will disagree with you on that. Actually, I don't need a news media or hizbullah or the IDF to tell me that the actual numbers of Lebanese deaths are not nearly as high as it should.

How about this for propoganda, why do we know the age of the Israeli girl that died today, but we don't know the ages (yes more than 1 child) of the children in Lebanon that died today. Hizbullah propoganda?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Actually, few Israeli civilians have died. The majority deaths are soldiers. More Lebanese than Israeli civilians have died.

I don't see why this distinction is important, to be honest. If anything, it's mostly related to your point below:

Originally Posted by _Opi_

I don't ignore Israeli civilians. First, their government should really try to get them to evacuate. two, they have bomb shelters. Lebanese civilians do not.

And so . . . ? I don't see how this 'matters', in a 'war' sense. Should Israel stop attacking because the Lebanese are worse equipped than their own civilians for such an attack?

Maybe it should tell you something that the Israelis HAVE such provisions available . . .

Originally Posted by _Opi_

During times of wars, both sides purport propoganda. This is the point I am addressing with you. You want me to say any other news agency in the world except for American ones are sources of propoganda. I will disagree with you on that. Actually, I don't need a news media or hizbullah or the IDF to tell me that the actual numbers of Lebanese deaths are not nearly as high as it should.

I don't want you to say anything of the sort - in fact, I've never assailed your sources, just your conclusions. I agree that both sides will twist media attention in their favor - see: Israel bombs mosque, claims shelter, CNN can't find evidence. However, saying "ISRAEL DOES IT TOO!" does NOT, in fact, negate my point at all - it's fallacious logic.

Originally Posted by _Opi_

How about this for propoganda, why do we know the age of the Israeli girl that died today, but we don't know the ages (yes more than 1 child) of the children in Lebanon that died today. Hizbullah propoganda?

Nope, I'd say that's good old fashioned American journalism during wartime - something that's been going on for decades, and something I don't necessarily agree with. DeltAlum may actually provide some insight here, too - there might be other reasons, such as lack of access to Lebanese information/stories comparatively, or the rationale of taking one story as indicative and exploring it in detail - but regardless, I'm not playing apologist for propaganda techniques.

I'm simply asserting that one benefit for Hezbollah in placing strategic locations within urban areas comes in the ability to claim "Israel has killed the innocent!" when unavoidable collateral damage occurs.

You have addressed this by saying "Israel manipulates the media too!" This is not, at all, the issue. You're going 10 rounds with the strawman instead of swinging for the actual topic.

[_Opi_]

My sister's favorite sentence: Let's agree to disagree!

Shall we?

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

My sister's favorite sentence: Let's agree to disagree!

Shall we?

One of my favorite phrases since I've been working is "the dick dance."

That's what the past however many pages have been.